Am 25.07.2012 17:33, schrieb Warp:
> Warp <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote:
>> Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
>>> On 25/07/2012 06:41 AM, Warp wrote:
>>>> Orchid Win7 v1<voi### [at] devnull>  wrote:
>>>>> And yet... he's the hero? No, seriously.
>>>>
>>>> It's the typical anti-hero trope.
>
>>> Sure. But you can't just take somebody with no redeeming qualities and
>>> say "he's the hero". That wouldn't work as a story. And yet, there are
>>> several stories where it clearly /does/ work. And I can't figure out how
>>> they do that.
>
>> See my answer above.
>
> Ok, I'll be a bit nicer and try a slightly more profound analysis of the
> character archetype.
>
> Jack Sparrow is an anti-heroical subversion of the classical swashbuckler
> archetype.
>
> In nostalgic/romantic storytelling, a swashbuckler has been traditionally
> a goody-goody merry adventurer, most often from the romantic period of
> 16th-17th century European baroque and the golden era of piracy (the three
> musqueteers being the quintessential example), although it can go much
> farther in the past (Robin Hood being another excellent example, whose
> stories are often dated to something like the 13th or 14th century)
>
> The goody-goody hero character is a bit boring nowadays, and often tends to
> be a rather flat and two-dimensional character. The so-called anti-hero is a
> much more popular character type nowadays. The swashbuckler anti-hero is
> quite similar to his more traditional counterpart in that he is a merry
> adventurer who gets into wacky and flashy adventures, but unlike the
> traditional swashbuckler, he has no qualms in lying, stealing and
> committing other crimes if it serves his purposes (usually those of purely
> personal gain). He might end up fighting the villains, but not because of
> a sense of doing the right thing, but for personal reasons.
>
> Unlike the typical swashbuckler, this is a *flawed* character. He commits
> crimes, he is selfish and does things for personal gain, not to help others
> (unless he is emotionally invested, eg. from a romantic perspective), yet
> he usually ends up being the unwitting hero of the story who defeats the
> actual villains.
>
> There's much more depth to this character, and the writers have a much richer
> variety of hijinks at their disposal for this character because he is not
> limited to the boundaries of what's good, ethical and lawful.

Plus, it's much easier to like this guy. The audience can identify with 
his flaws (at the same time feeling superior to him because he's even 
worse, making him a non-threat), and also with the stuff that happens to 
him.

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On 7/25/2012 0:57, Invisible wrote:
> Sure. But you can't just take somebody with no redeeming qualities and say
> "he's the hero".

You can if his redeeming trait is that he's fighting against the even more 
awful "legitimate" characters.  Han Solo is a smuggler, a pirate, a card 
cheat, etc. But since he's giving the finger to Darth Vadar, we like him anyway.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Oh no! We're out of code juice!"
   "Don't panic. There's beans and filters
    in the cabinet."

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Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> Darth Vadar

That name gets misspelled probably as frequently as "Hannibal Lecter".
I wonder in how many ways it's misspelled.

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On 25/07/2012 07:55 PM, Darren New wrote:
> On 7/25/2012 0:57, Invisible wrote:
>> Sure. But you can't just take somebody with no redeeming qualities and
>> say "he's the hero".
>
> You can if his redeeming trait is that he's fighting against the even
> more awful "legitimate" characters. Han Solo is a smuggler, a pirate, a
> card cheat, etc. But since he's giving the finger to Darth Vadar, we
> like him anyway.

Perhaps. But I'm not sure that's all.

For example, both Captain Sparrow and Captain Barbosa are pirates. They 
both lie, cheat, steal, and generally look out only for themselves. And 
yet, somehow Sparrow is the hero, and Barbosa isn't.

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Orchid Win7 v1 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> For example, both Captain Sparrow and Captain Barbosa are pirates. They 
> both lie, cheat, steal, and generally look out only for themselves. And 
> yet, somehow Sparrow is the hero, and Barbosa isn't.

Who has the more charisma?

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Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> On 24/07/2012 10:02 PM, nemesis wrote:
> > what good story is in Pirates of the Caribbean?  Fun blockbuster?  Sure!  Makes
> > any sense?  No.
>
> If you think the story doesn't /make sense/, you're clearly doing
> something very, very wrong.

says the dude who wouldn't figure out the narrative arc from monkeys to space in
A Space Odissey... -_-

Don't get me wrong, it does make sense as a sequence of banalities.  It's just
non-sense by itself, specially irritating when actors act all serious and
dramatic spilling their irrelevant lines...

I'd say it's the most fun and expensive B movie(s) ever...

BTW, you guys do know it's based on the Disney attraction in their parks, right?

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Orchid Win7 v1 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> On 25/07/2012 07:55 PM, Darren New wrote:
> > On 7/25/2012 0:57, Invisible wrote:
> >> Sure. But you can't just take somebody with no redeeming qualities and
> >> say "he's the hero".
> >
> > You can if his redeeming trait is that he's fighting against the even
> > more awful "legitimate" characters. Han Solo is a smuggler, a pirate, a
> > card cheat, etc. But since he's giving the finger to Darth Vadar, we
> > like him anyway.
>
> Perhaps. But I'm not sure that's all.
>
> For example, both Captain Sparrow and Captain Barbosa are pirates. They
> both lie, cheat, steal, and generally look out only for themselves. And
> yet, somehow Sparrow is the hero, and Barbosa isn't.

Barbosa acts all serious and menacing.  Sparrow is the unlucky and coward
bastard who somehow got hold of a ship, crew and a reputation as a pirate
legend.  He's fun and we sympathise with him, not with Barbosa (or Davy Jones
for that matter). :)

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>> If you think the story doesn't /make sense/, you're clearly doing
>> something very, very wrong.
>
> says the dude who wouldn't figure out the narrative arc from monkeys to space in
> A Space Odissey... -_-

2001 starts nowhere, goes nowhere, and ends up nowhere. It's almost 
/literally/ a series of random shots with no connecting narrative at 
all. (Except the middle part on the space station. /That/ almost makes 
sense.)

> Don't get me wrong, it does make sense as a sequence of banalities.

It's one of my favourite films /ever/. So don't even /try/ to tell me 
it's a bad film. :-P

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> Jack Sparrow is an anti-heroical subversion of the classical swashbuckler
> archetype.
>
> In nostalgic/romantic storytelling, a swashbuckler has been traditionally
> a goody-goody merry adventurer, most often from the romantic period of
> 16th-17th century European baroque and the golden era of piracy (the three
> musqueteers being the quintessential example), although it can go much
> farther in the past (Robin Hood being another excellent example, whose
> stories are often dated to something like the 13th or 14th century)

This has always bothered me: How come the three musketeers are /never/ 
seen holding muskets? What is /that/ about??

Robin Hood is a set of tales which have morphed between many things over 
the course of history. The "original" Robin Hood was quite different 
from the fable we know today. It's changed with the times, depending on 
what type of story audiences enjoy hearing. (I suppose the same can be 
said of just about any really old story.)

> Unlike the typical swashbuckler, this is a *flawed* character. He commits
> crimes, he is selfish and does things for personal gain, not to help others
> (unless he is emotionally invested, eg. from a romantic perspective), yet
> he usually ends up being the unwitting hero of the story who defeats the
> actual villains.
>
> There's much more depth to this character, and the writers have a much richer
> variety of hijinks at their disposal for this character because he is not
> limited to the boundaries of what's good, ethical and lawful.

Sometimes a character starts out as an actual villain with an honest 
streak - perhaps one he didn't even know he had - and by the end of the 
story he changes sides.

But that's not what happens in this particular tale. In the beginning, 
Jack is a pirate. At the end, he's still a pirate. And yet, we love him 
for it.

It's not so much that he beat the Evil Authorities. Really, the Royal 
Navy comes across as pretty righteous. And they aren't even IN the film 
all that much. This is mostly a battle of Jack verses Barbosa. And Jack 
wins. So, ultimately, it all comes back to which pirate is the good guy.

Another thing: I really /hate/ this idea that every character has to be 
"flawed" in some way or the audience can't like them. Was Bambi a flawed 
character? Did the audience like Bambi? Did little children cry when his 
mother was shot? OK, now go watch Bambi II. (Yes, this film exists. No, 
it isn't any good at all.) In order to make it "relevant" and 
"accessible" to today's youth, they had to make it all so that Bambi's 
father has difficulty relating to him, and that's the drama to be 
resolved over the course of the film. Yuck!

While I'm here... It seems there are two types of villain too. Some of 
them are just monsters. Purest evil. The kind that nobody could possibly 
like. But it seems that all the /best/ villains are at least partially 
likeable. Perhaps you understand what drove them to do it. Or maybe 
they're just charismatic, even hypnotic. But the best ones all have 
something about them...

...I really suck at writing, BTW.

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> This has always bothered me: How come the three musketeers are /never/
> seen holding muskets? What is /that/ about??
>

The Musketeers were a militia serving the King.  Athos, Portos and 
Aramis were full-fledged members of that militia, and D'Artagnan was a 
young kid from the country who was tired of fixing the water 
condensators on his uncle's farm and wanted to join the Space Academy. 
No wait! Wrong story!

The muskets - from which this militia gets its name - were kept at the 
garrison.  Just like today's military do not walk around with their 
assault rifles all the time but.

> While I'm here... It seems there are two types of villain too. Some of
> them are just monsters. Purest evil. The kind that nobody could possibly
> like. But it seems that all the /best/ villains are at least partially
> likeable. Perhaps you understand what drove them to do it. Or maybe
> they're just charismatic, even hypnotic. But the best ones all have
> something about them...

Yep.  Everyone thinks Darth Vader is cool.  No one thinks that of Jabba 
The Hut.

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