>> I played for about 2 years, total. And that was 20 years ago...
>
> See, the impression you gave about this previously was that you had many
> years' experience playing.  2 years isn't enough to get a lot of
> expertise in playing an instrument.  You said you sucked at it.  You
> didn't say that you only played for 2 years when you were<  11 years old.
>
> That makes a difference.

I did say I wasn't much good in the first place. ;-)

As you presumably know, the characteristic sound of the violin comes 
from playing with vibrato - which is absurdly difficult. They don't 
teach you how to do that until you're already a really good player.

> If it were /easy/, then everyone could play like Itzhak Perlman.

Uh... who?

I did find some page on the Internet which shows you how to hold the 
violin itself and the bow. And then it says "already, bring on the 
Paganini!" As if anybody is going to be able to play Paganini after 
reading a few web pages...

>> Basically,
>> it's /sensitive/. That means that in experienced hands, you can do all
>> this really expressive playing, which is what the violin is famous for
>> of course. But because it's /sensitive/, it also means that in
>> inexperienced hands, every slightly glitch is magnified drastically, and
>> it sounds plain AWFUL!>_<
>
> You expect to get instant expertise.  It takes years (more than *2*) to
> get to that level of playing.

What I'm saying is, you can pick up a guitar and make a half-decent 
sound with it in about ten minutes. Because a guitar is not a 
particularly sensitive instrument. A violin is much, much harder. 
Because it's very, very sensitive. That means you can do much more with 
it, but also that it takes far more effort.

Having just said all that, I haven't played a violin for 20 years. I 
wasn't that good in the first place. But I have now reached the point 
where, provided I stick to the key of D major, I can play simple 
melodies which sound more or less in tune, with a tone that isn't 
horrifyingly awful. When you consider how long it took to get that good 
the /first/ time around, that's not bad...

>> So far, I basically haven't used the E-string at all. The pressure of
>> the bow on the string seems to be enough to put it out of tune. And as
>> soon as I put a finger on it, it becomes almost completely mute.
>
> That tells me that the pegs are definitely not right for the peg holes,
> and you should get someone to take a look at it.

It strikes me that this violin was probably on sale in a charity shop 
/for a reason/. ;-)

I'm hoping to pay a visit to the local music shop tomorrow. (Like all 
shops, they deliberately open an hour after I leave for work, and shut 
an hour before I get home again.) I'll get them to take a look at it and 
see what they say. I might also be able to pick up a new violin and see 
if there's any noticeable difference in sound quality.

>> Also, I have bruised fingertips now. :-/
>
> Yep, that'll happen until you get callouses on your fingertips.  That's
> part of the reason I haven't played in several years - I don't have those
> callouses, but I have the dexterity, and it does hurt to play.  Feels
> like I'm cutting into my fingertips with a dull knife.

Even when I was being taught by professionals, I always hated the 
E-string. That thing is /basically/ a piece of cheese wire. That's what 
it is, you're pressing a cheese wire into your fingertips. Ouch! >_<

I'm really excited to have a violin in my life again. But everybody else 
I've told about it has said "urgh, I *hate* violin!" Ho hum. Forever 
unappreciated, eh? It would be nice to be able to play well, but 
realistically I doubt I have the time or money to make that a reality. 
So I'm just going to see how far I can get with it. We'll see what 
happens after that.

PS. Ever tried playing flute? That's pretty hard too. When I was first 
given one, it took the entire household about a month to collectively 
figure out how to get a single note out of it... ;-)

Post a reply to this message

On 18/05/2012 11:27 PM, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
> PS. Ever tried playing flute? That's pretty hard too. When I was first
> given one, it took the entire household about a month to collectively
> figure out how to get a single note out of it... ;-)

I can get a tune out of a tin whistle. Is that close? ;-)

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On Fri, 18 May 2012 22:25:38 +0100, Stephen wrote:

> On 18/05/2012 8:57 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> LOL.:)   BTW, I was shocked (shocked, I say!)
> 
> Bzzz! Repetition.

Awwww. ;)

>> that there was no Mornington Crescent in the last series.
> 
> I did not really notice. It's one song to the tune of another that I
> look forward to.

We noticed, though I'm more partial to the Uxbridge English Dictionary.  
But OSttToA is also lots of fun. :)

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Fri, 18 May 2012 23:27:38 +0100, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:

>>> I played for about 2 years, total. And that was 20 years ago...
>>
>> See, the impression you gave about this previously was that you had
>> many years' experience playing.  2 years isn't enough to get a lot of
>> expertise in playing an instrument.  You said you sucked at it.  You
>> didn't say that you only played for 2 years when you were<  11 years
>> old.
>>
>> That makes a difference.
> 
> I did say I wasn't much good in the first place. ;-)

No, you lamented how after years of practice, you weren't any good.  2 
years starting at age 9 doesn't constitute "years of practice". :P

> As you presumably know, the characteristic sound of the violin comes
> from playing with vibrato - which is absurdly difficult. They don't
> teach you how to do that until you're already a really good player.

Again, not something you learn at age 9.  I think my lessons started 
including vibrato in middle school.

At age 9, it's "absurdly difficult" because you don't generally have the 
necessary motor control at that age.

>> If it were /easy/, then everyone could play like Itzhak Perlman.
> 
> Uh... who?

World famous violinist from Israel, paralyzed from the waist down due to 
polio.  Did the solo work in Schindler's List, among other things.

Plays a Stradivarius and can really make it sing.

Wait a sec.  I forgot who I'm talking to. <facepalm>

> I did find some page on the Internet which shows you how to hold the
> violin itself and the bow. And then it says "already, bring on the
> Paganini!" As if anybody is going to be able to play Paganini after
> reading a few web pages...

And if you believe that .... well, I cannot stop you from believing such 
nonsense.

> What I'm saying is, you can pick up a guitar and make a half-decent
> sound with it in about ten minutes. Because a guitar is not a
> particularly sensitive instrument. A violin is much, much harder.
> Because it's very, very sensitive. That means you can do much more with
> it, but also that it takes far more effort.

It's not "very, very sensitive", but the nature of it being bowed means 
that it's not as simple to play as plucking a string.  If you play 
pizzicato on a violin and hold it like a guitar, you can actually get 
sound out of it (in fact, that's how I actually started playing, that was 
how they taught students where I went to school).

> Having just said all that, I haven't played a violin for 20 years. I
> wasn't that good in the first place. 

You had *2 bloody years* of instruction!!!!!  You *wouldn't* be very good 
at it in the first place with only 2 years of instruction, especially if 
your teacher was as crap as it sounds.

As much as you might like to believe it, there's absolutely NO WAY you're 
going to be playing Paganini after 2 years of instruction.  Not on the 
violin, not on the piano, not on the guitar.

> But I have now reached the point
> where, provided I stick to the key of D major, I can play simple
> melodies which sound more or less in tune, with a tone that isn't
> horrifyingly awful. When you consider how long it took to get that good
> the /first/ time around, that's not bad...
> 
>>> So far, I basically haven't used the E-string at all. The pressure of
>>> the bow on the string seems to be enough to put it out of tune. And as
>>> soon as I put a finger on it, it becomes almost completely mute.
>>
>> That tells me that the pegs are definitely not right for the peg holes,
>> and you should get someone to take a look at it.
> 
> It strikes me that this violin was probably on sale in a charity shop
> /for a reason/. ;-)

Very likely.  But it sounds repairable.

> I'm hoping to pay a visit to the local music shop tomorrow. (Like all
> shops, they deliberately open an hour after I leave for work, and shut
> an hour before I get home again.) I'll get them to take a look at it and
> see what they say. I might also be able to pick up a new violin and see
> if there's any noticeable difference in sound quality.

Given what you've said about your financial situation, it's not likely 
you'll be able to afford a violin that has good tonal qualities.  Back in 
the 80's when I started playing, when I was big enough for a full-size 
violin, my parents bought one.  It cost about $1500, but was on sale.

The bow that I have (which needs to be rehaired) was about $300 as I 
recall.

A violin that doesn't sound like crap costs a little bit of money.  
Mine's not a Stradivarius (it's a copy of a Guenari, though - according 
to the label - and Guenari studied under the same maker IIRC as 
Stradivarius did).

>>> Also, I have bruised fingertips now. :-/
>>
>> Yep, that'll happen until you get callouses on your fingertips.  That's
>> part of the reason I haven't played in several years - I don't have
>> those callouses, but I have the dexterity, and it does hurt to play. 
>> Feels like I'm cutting into my fingertips with a dull knife.
> 
> Even when I was being taught by professionals, I always hated the
> E-string. That thing is /basically/ a piece of cheese wire. That's what
> it is, you're pressing a cheese wire into your fingertips. Ouch! >_<

You get used to it after a while.  But I'd argue that you weren't "taught 
by professionals" if you didn't learn how to tune it.

> I'm really excited to have a violin in my life again. But everybody else
> I've told about it has said "urgh, I *hate* violin!" Ho hum. Forever
> unappreciated, eh? It would be nice to be able to play well, but
> realistically I doubt I have the time or money to make that a reality.
> So I'm just going to see how far I can get with it. We'll see what
> happens after that.

That's the spirit - as much as what I've said above here is somewhat out 
of frustration - you *shouldn't* care what my opinion is.  If you're 
having fun doing it, and aren't expecting a miracle in terms of learning 
speed, have fun with it.

> PS. Ever tried playing flute? That's pretty hard too. When I was first
> given one, it took the entire household about a month to collectively
> figure out how to get a single note out of it... ;-)

I haven't, but my stepson did for a while, and my wife has a friend who 
is now (AFAIK) playing with the New York Philharmonic.  From what I 
understand, playing flute is like blowing over the top of a soda bottle - 
that's how you get sound out of it.

My brother played/plays oboe.  And keyboards, but he really loves playing 
the oboe.  If you think flute is hard, you should try a double-reed 
instrument.  I tried making noise just with the reed once, and it was 
extremely difficult.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

>> I did say I wasn't much good in the first place. ;-)
>
> No, you lamented how after years of practice, you weren't any good.  2
> years starting at age 9 doesn't constitute "years of practice". :P

When did I say that?

The violin is a very hard instrument to play. I /know/ I was never that 
great at it, and I didn't expect to be. Something this hard takes a 
lifetime to master.

>> As you presumably know, the characteristic sound of the violin comes
>> from playing with vibrato - which is absurdly difficult. They don't
>> teach you how to do that until you're already a really good player.
>
> Again, not something you learn at age 9.  I think my lessons started
> including vibrato in middle school.
>
> At age 9, it's "absurdly difficult" because you don't generally have the
> necessary motor control at that age.

It looks pretty difficult for an adult to do too. Not that I've actually 
tried...

>> I did find some page on the Internet which shows you how to hold the
>> violin itself and the bow. And then it says "already, bring on the
>> Paganini!" As if anybody is going to be able to play Paganini after
>> reading a few web pages...
>
> And if you believe that .... well, I cannot stop you from believing such
> nonsense.

Clearly my sarcasm is not biting enough. :-P

> As much as you might like to believe it, there's absolutely NO WAY you're
> going to be playing Paganini after 2 years of instruction.  Not on the
> violin, not on the piano, not on the guitar.

I don't expect to /ever/ be playing Paganini - and I'm not sure how I 
gave the impression that I think otherwise...

> Given what you've said about your financial situation, it's not likely
> you'll be able to afford a violin that has good tonal qualities.

> A violin that doesn't sound like crap costs a little bit of money.

I'm fairly sure even a genuine Stradivarius would sound awful in my 
hands. But hey, it's not like I'm intending to join a concert orchestra. 
If I can get to the point where I can play a tune and have it sound 
reasonable, that'll do for me.

>> Even when I was being taught by professionals, I always hated the
>> E-string. That thing is /basically/ a piece of cheese wire. That's what
>> it is, you're pressing a cheese wire into your fingertips. Ouch!>_<
>
> You get used to it after a while.  But I'd argue that you weren't "taught
> by professionals" if you didn't learn how to tune it.

In fairness, I'd imagine they do teach you that a little later on. It's 
just that our music teacher retired, and then music lessons vanished off 
the school timetable. (All the instruments vanished too. Today, that 
school's music lessons consist of kids aimlessly bashing electronic 
keyboards while the teacher tries to make 'em pay attention...)

>> I'm really excited to have a violin in my life again. But everybody else
>> I've told about it has said "urgh, I *hate* violin!" Ho hum. Forever
>> unappreciated, eh? It would be nice to be able to play well, but
>> realistically I doubt I have the time or money to make that a reality.
>> So I'm just going to see how far I can get with it. We'll see what
>> happens after that.
>
> That's the spirit - as much as what I've said above here is somewhat out
> of frustration - you *shouldn't* care what my opinion is.  If you're
> having fun doing it, and aren't expecting a miracle in terms of learning
> speed, have fun with it.

I intend to. So far, I've only found one person who seems excited by 
this, which is a little disappointing. But hey, we'll see how it goes...

>> PS. Ever tried playing flute? That's pretty hard too.
>
> I haven't, but my stepson did for a while, and my wife has a friend who
> is now (AFAIK) playing with the New York Philharmonic.  From what I
> understand, playing flute is like blowing over the top of a soda bottle -
> that's how you get sound out of it.

If you just blow into it, nothing happens. It seems it works on the same 
principle as a pipe organ; you direct a narrow stream of air against a 
hard edge. In a pipe organ (or a recorder), you've got a vent to do that 
for you. With a flute, you have to do this weird contortion of your face 
where you blow downwards, and you need to hit the edge of the air hole. 
It's actually quite easy once you get the knack...

(Making it /sound good/ is probably a whole other matter. But I've only 
got a cheap little bamboo flute. It sounds pleasant enough.)

> My brother played/plays oboe.  And keyboards, but he really loves playing
> the oboe.  If you think flute is hard, you should try a double-reed
> instrument.  I tried making noise just with the reed once, and it was
> extremely difficult.

Ah, the oboe. Another expressive instrument. Yeah, I bet that's hard...

Post a reply to this message

On 19/05/2012 2:46 AM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> We noticed, though I'm more partial to the Uxbridge English Dictionary.

Since I am living in that fayre town, I'll look out for a copy of it for 
you. ;-)

> But OSttToA is also lots of fun.:)

I like it because I am so duff at music.

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On Sat, 19 May 2012 15:52:22 +0100, Stephen wrote:

> On 19/05/2012 2:46 AM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> We noticed, though I'm more partial to the Uxbridge English Dictionary.
> 
> Since I am living in that fayre town, I'll look out for a copy of it for
> you. ;-)

As it happens, I have a copy already. :)

>> But OSttToA is also lots of fun.:)
> 
> I like it because I am so duff at music.

I like it because of the creativity involved in getting the words to fit 
to a different tune, and how well it usually turns out.

Except for when Jeremy does it, of course.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Sat, 19 May 2012 10:56:09 +0100, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:

>>> I did say I wasn't much good in the first place. ;-)
>>
>> No, you lamented how after years of practice, you weren't any good.  2
>> years starting at age 9 doesn't constitute "years of practice". :P
> 
> When did I say that?

Well, I'd give a cite, but it's been a couple of years ago, and it may 
well just be that that was the impression you gave rather than saying it 
explicitly.

> The violin is a very hard instrument to play. I /know/ I was never that
> great at it, and I didn't expect to be. Something this hard takes a
> lifetime to master.

Ironically, the reason I started was because I saw a demonstration and 
said "that looks easy, I could do that", and I did.  And I was actually 
pretty good at it, too (hence the trip to the USSR to perform with the 
orchestra I was in).

>> Again, not something you learn at age 9.  I think my lessons started
>> including vibrato in middle school.
>>
>> At age 9, it's "absurdly difficult" because you don't generally have
>> the necessary motor control at that age.
> 
> It looks pretty difficult for an adult to do too. Not that I've actually
> tried...

This is another of those "it's not something you can pick up instantly" 
things.  It's actually pretty easy once you learn how.

>>> I did find some page on the Internet which shows you how to hold the
>>> violin itself and the bow. And then it says "already, bring on the
>>> Paganini!" As if anybody is going to be able to play Paganini after
>>> reading a few web pages...
>>
>> And if you believe that .... well, I cannot stop you from believing
>> such nonsense.
> 
> Clearly my sarcasm is not biting enough. :-P

Perhaps a variant of Poe's Law is in play here. :)

>> Given what you've said about your financial situation, it's not likely
>> you'll be able to afford a violin that has good tonal qualities.
> 
>> A violin that doesn't sound like crap costs a little bit of money.
> 
> I'm fairly sure even a genuine Stradivarius would sound awful in my
> hands. But hey, it's not like I'm intending to join a concert orchestra.
> If I can get to the point where I can play a tune and have it sound
> reasonable, that'll do for me.

There is certainly technique you'll need to acquire.  Figuring out the 
right amount of pressure and the corresponding speed to draw the bow so 
it doesn't sound scratchy, making sure you're moving the bow parallel to 
the bridge (and between the bridge and end of the fingerboard, with a few 
exceptions).  Hitting the right notes, of course - as a fretless 
instrument, it takes practice to build the muscle memory to consistently 
hit notes in tune.

The way I was taught was to put a little strip of tape in the normal 
positions for each finger.

>>> Even when I was being taught by professionals, I always hated the
>>> E-string. That thing is /basically/ a piece of cheese wire. That's
>>> what it is, you're pressing a cheese wire into your fingertips.
>>> Ouch!>_<
>>
>> You get used to it after a while.  But I'd argue that you weren't
>> "taught by professionals" if you didn't learn how to tune it.
> 
> In fairness, I'd imagine they do teach you that a little later on. It's
> just that our music teacher retired, and then music lessons vanished off
> the school timetable. (All the instruments vanished too. Today, that
> school's music lessons consist of kids aimlessly bashing electronic
> keyboards while the teacher tries to make 'em pay attention...)

Sounds like you could've been going to an American school with that 
progression.  ;)

>> That's the spirit - as much as what I've said above here is somewhat
>> out of frustration - you *shouldn't* care what my opinion is.  If
>> you're having fun doing it, and aren't expecting a miracle in terms of
>> learning speed, have fun with it.
> 
> I intend to. So far, I've only found one person who seems excited by
> this, which is a little disappointing. But hey, we'll see how it goes...

So don't get me wrong, I'm excited for you as well - it's hard to express 
that especially when sometimes you say things that are completely 
baffling. ;)  But just like when you figured out that you enjoy dancing, 
I'm happy that you've found something else that you can enjoy doing.  :)

>>> PS. Ever tried playing flute? That's pretty hard too.
>>
>> I haven't, but my stepson did for a while, and my wife has a friend who
>> is now (AFAIK) playing with the New York Philharmonic.  From what I
>> understand, playing flute is like blowing over the top of a soda bottle
>> -
>> that's how you get sound out of it.
> 
> If you just blow into it, nothing happens. It seems it works on the same
> principle as a pipe organ; you direct a narrow stream of air against a
> hard edge. In a pipe organ (or a recorder), you've got a vent to do that
> for you. With a flute, you have to do this weird contortion of your face
> where you blow downwards, and you need to hit the edge of the air hole.
> It's actually quite easy once you get the knack...

Yeah, almost exactly like making a soda bottle whistle.

> (Making it /sound good/ is probably a whole other matter. But I've only
> got a cheap little bamboo flute. It sounds pleasant enough.)
> 
>> My brother played/plays oboe.  And keyboards, but he really loves
>> playing the oboe.  If you think flute is hard, you should try a
>> double-reed instrument.  I tried making noise just with the reed once,
>> and it was extremely difficult.
> 
> Ah, the oboe. Another expressive instrument. Yeah, I bet that's hard...

The thing with Steve playing the oboe was he decided he wanted to play it 
at a very young age.  Too young, in fact - it requires a fair amount of 
strength in the embouchure, and he wanted to start when he was 8 or 9 
years old (2nd or 3rd grade), before his embouchure was developed enough 
to handle the physical forces involved.

So he started with piano, but he started on oboe in 4th grade (5th is 
when band instruments are usually started in the schools I went to), and 
he got very good at it very quickly.  So quickly, in fact, that by the 
time he was in the 6th grade (which was the last grade in elementary 
school at the time), he was completely bored with the music they were 
playing.

He had private lessons from an oboist in the Minnesota Orchestra, so that 
kept him challenged.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

> Ironically, the reason I started was because I saw a demonstration and
> said "that looks easy, I could do that", and I did.  And I was actually
> pretty good at it, too (hence the trip to the USSR to perform with the
> orchestra I was in).

Sounds like how I started playing pipe organ. I saw a guy play the Widor 
Toccata and decided to see if I could play it. Apparently, I can... 
(It's wicked hard, though.)

>> I'm fairly sure even a genuine Stradivarius would sound awful in my
>> hands.
>
> There is certainly technique you'll need to acquire.  Figuring out the
> right amount of pressure and the corresponding speed to draw the bow so
> it doesn't sound scratchy, making sure you're moving the bow parallel to
> the bridge (and between the bridge and end of the fingerboard, with a few
> exceptions).  Hitting the right notes, of course - as a fretless
> instrument, it takes practice to build the muscle memory to consistently
> hit notes in tune.
>
> The way I was taught was to put a little strip of tape in the normal
> positions for each finger.

Clearly I'm going to have to figure out how to get my hands on 
professional tuition...

>> I intend to. So far, I've only found one person who seems excited by
>> this, which is a little disappointing. But hey, we'll see how it goes...
>
> So don't get me wrong, I'm excited for you as well - it's hard to express
> that especially when sometimes you say things that are completely
> baffling. ;)  But just like when you figured out that you enjoy dancing,
> I'm happy that you've found something else that you can enjoy doing.  :)

I enjoy doing it. And then the day after, my fingers hate me... ;-)

>> Ah, the oboe. Another expressive instrument. Yeah, I bet that's hard...
>
> The thing with Steve playing the oboe was he decided he wanted to play it
> at a very young age.  Too young, in fact - it requires a fair amount of
> strength in the embouchure, and he wanted to start when he was 8 or 9
> years old (2nd or 3rd grade), before his embouchure was developed enough
> to handle the physical forces involved.
>
> So he started with piano, but he started on oboe in 4th grade (5th is
> when band instruments are usually started in the schools I went to), and
> he got very good at it very quickly.  So quickly, in fact, that by the
> time he was in the 6th grade (which was the last grade in elementary
> school at the time), he was completely bored with the music they were
> playing.
>
> He had private lessons from an oboist in the Minnesota Orchestra, so that
> kept him challenged.

It must be fantastic to actually be good at something. I can't imagine 
what that's like...

(Well, maybe I can. I've discovered that the more you learn how to do 
something - anything - the more you realise how drastically wrong you're 
doing it! And no matter how good you are, somebody else is always 
better. It's just a matter of how far you need to go to find that person...)

Post a reply to this message

On 19/05/2012 7:25 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> Except for when Jeremy does it, of course.

My hero. :-D

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message