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Paul Fuller <pgf### [at] optusnet comau> wrote:
> An alien race with sufficiently advanced technology could in theory at
> least construct and maintain any domicile that they wish and could do so
> for whatever reason they want. Think force fields to form the hollow
> structure, fusion power for a micro star, gravity manipulation etc.
> Actually, scratch the gravity. Imagine the living space of not just the
> surface but the entire volume.
We know that the Earth's crust is several kilometers thick (I think it
was something like 5 km thick at the *thinnest* point, so in average it's
much thicker than that), and we know that underneath the crust there's a
significant amount of molten rock (which, among other things, causes
continental drift, and of course volcanos).
In order for the Earth to be hollow there would have to be an inner
surface strong enough to stop this rocky shell from collapsing under
its own gravity. This rocky shell is really, really heavy. We know
approximately how much solid rock there is in the crust alone (not to
talk about the magma below it), and we know Earth's gravity, so can
can calculate how much force this rocky shell would be exerting on
the inner surface of the hollow Earth.
Granted, I haven't done the calculations, but I wouldn't be surprised
if the required strength would surpass even the strongest known materials
by several orders of magnitude.
Another alternative is that the alien technology is keeping Earth's curst
in place by using some unknown form of energy which is a) capable of doing
that, b) strong enough, c) undetectable by our technology.
Additionally the alien technology would have to simulate how earthquake
waves traverse through the Earth, to give us a false picture of the
different layers inside.
Seems like a whole lot of trouble and a whole lot of unknown physics
and technology. If aliens are experimenting on us, wouldn't it be much
simpler to just use an old-fashioned solid planet?-)
--
- Warp
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On 11/12/2011 11:33, Warp wrote:
> Seems like a whole lot of trouble and a whole lot of unknown physics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strata_%28novel%29
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
People tell me I am the counter-example.
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On 12/11/2011 7:52 PM, Darren New wrote:
> On 11/12/2011 11:33, Warp wrote:
>> Seems like a whole lot of trouble and a whole lot of unknown physics
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strata_%28novel%29
>
Or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_of_Shadows
--
Regards
Stephen
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That is pretty much what I said. Conceptually possible given unknown
but extremely advanced technology and unknown but extremely unlikely
motives.
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On 13/11/2011 7:29 AM, Stephen wrote:
> On 12/11/2011 7:52 PM, Darren New wrote:
>> On 11/12/2011 11:33, Warp wrote:
>>> Seems like a whole lot of trouble and a whole lot of unknown physics
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strata_%28novel%29
>>
>
> Or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_of_Shadows
>
>
Or http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter_%28novel%29
There was another SF series that I can't recall the name of right now.
The solar system had been converted to house vastly more humans by
erecting concentric Dyson spheres approximately at the orbital radii of
the existing planets. The planets were left as little legacy worlds
rotating in blisters within the shells. These allowed passage between
the spaces between the shells and therefore for the protagonists to
travel either inwards or outwards.
There was a nice driver in that the structure was created by an AI
charged with "providing ever increasing living space for the human
population". Initially it appeared that the AI was trying to prevent
the crew exploring. [Spoiler alert] It turns out that the AI had
realised the futility of trying to cope with exponential growth and had
caused the crew to be formed in order to try to resolve the situation
before its capabilities were exceeded. It was a bit schizo because it
could not defy its primary directive but still had to resolve the
impossibility.
The shells had to be reinforced by some form of force field and gravity
generators were used to allow occupation of the outer surface of each
shell. Fusion generators were used to create mini suns in orbits
between the shells to provide heat and light.
Then there was a shell where the "humans" were engineered to be smaller
and able to exist in caverns through a greater volume rather than just
on the shell surface. The population was in the trillions or quadrillions.
I read them about 30 years ago. Probably a bit childish and naive to
reread but I recall them fondly.
Was it the "Cage World" series ? Can't turn up any hits through the
usual means.
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On 13/11/2011 10:16 AM, Paul Fuller wrote:
> Or http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter_%28novel%29
>
I was thinking of that one too.
> Then there was a shell where the "humans" were engineered to be smaller
> and able to exist in caverns through a greater volume rather than just
> on the shell surface. The population was in the trillions or quadrillions.
Which reminds me of James Blish's "The Seedling Stars" series.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Blish#The_Seedling_Stars_.28Pantropy.29
>
> I read them about 30 years ago. Probably a bit childish and naive to
> reread but I recall them fondly.
>
I know that feeling. :-)
> Was it the "Cage World" series ? Can't turn up any hits through the
> usual means.
Sorry, I can't help there. Sounds worth a read, though.
--
Regards
Stephen
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On 18/11/2011 2:11 AM, Stephen wrote:
> On 13/11/2011 10:16 AM, Paul Fuller wrote:
>> Or http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter_%28novel%29
>>
>
> I was thinking of that one too.
>
I enjoyed both "Matter" and "Surface Detail".
>
>> Then there was a shell where the "humans" were engineered to be smaller
>> and able to exist in caverns through a greater volume rather than just
>> on the shell surface. The population was in the trillions or
>> quadrillions.
>
> Which reminds me of James Blish's "The Seedling Stars" series.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Blish#The_Seedling_Stars_.28Pantropy.29
>
Haven't read that series. The only Blish I've read is "Cities in
Fight". The idea was good but the writing seemed a bit heavy for my taste.
>>
>> I read them about 30 years ago. Probably a bit childish and naive to
>> reread but I recall them fondly.
>>
>
> I know that feeling. :-)
>
Yes. Some old favourites you just can't risk reading again. Others
stand up well.
>> Was it the "Cage World" series ? Can't turn up any hits through the
>> usual means.
>
> Sorry, I can't help there. Sounds worth a read, though.
>
>
I've searched a little bit more and I have not yet found a reference on
the web. Mind you that is searching without knowing the author, any of
the book titles or character names. Still I'd expect to turn up
something based on the slim details that I do remember. Maybe this is
the rare case where there is nothing to be found on a topic on the whole
web?
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>
> I've searched a little bit more and I have not yet found a reference on
> the web. Mind you that is searching without knowing the author, any of
> the book titles or character names. Still I'd expect to turn up
> something based on the slim details that I do remember. Maybe this is
> the rare case where there is nothing to be found on a topic on the whole
> web?
I spoke too soon.
Here are the details found at http://www.larryniven.net/mega.shtml:
Author: Colin Kapp
Title: Cageworld 1: Search for the Sun
Cageworld 2: The Lost Worlds of Cronus
Cageworld 3: The Tyrant of Hades
Cageworld 4: Star-Search
Type: Dyson sphere (type II)
Description:
In the distant future, the Solar System has been transformed into a
series of concentric shells (one for each planet, plus an extra one
between Saturn and Uranus, if I remember rightly). People live on the
outer surface of each sphere, and have forgotten about the outside universe.
Dimensions of the system (overall): diameter 12 billion kilometres;
mass 5.2e36 kilograms (2.6 million Suns).
Which gives enough info to find more references:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cageworld_series (very brief)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Kapp (not a lot of detail)
http://www.goodreads.com/series/50535 (this looks like the most detailed
info on the books)
Yet another obscure interest from my childhood that can be revived
through the wonders of the Internet.
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On 17/11/2011 3:40 PM, Paul Fuller wrote:
>
> I enjoyed both "Matter" and "Surface Detail".
>
I've liked all of Iain M Bank's books even the ones without the M.
>>
>>
>> Which reminds me of James Blish's "The Seedling Stars" series.
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Blish#The_Seedling_Stars_.28Pantropy.29
>>
>>
>
> Haven't read that series. The only Blish I've read is "Cities in Fight".
> The idea was good but the writing seemed a bit heavy for my taste.
>
I read them a long time ago and I fear that I would not enjoy reading
them now.
>
> Yes. Some old favourites you just can't risk reading again. Others stand
> up well.
>
Too true. It shows that it was the new ideas that captivated not the
literary style.
> I spoke too soon.
>
> Here are the details found at http://www.larryniven.net/mega.shtml:
>
> Author: Colin Kapp
> Title: Cageworld 1: Search for the Sun
> Cageworld 2: The Lost Worlds of Cronus
> Cageworld 3: The Tyrant of Hades
> Cageworld 4: Star-Search
Well done. I really liked Colin Kapp's Unorthodox Engineers when I was
young. And I see that I have a few of his books in pdf or txt format
that I have not gotten around to reading, yet.
--
Regards
Stephen
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I would venture to say that some of the people who believe in an
Underworld with unknown civilizations picture things not so much as a
hollow sphere with a sun in the middle, but more like the interior of
the earth (or perhaps the outer mile or so of the crust) being riddled
with caverns of varying size, some large enough to harbor large
communities of perhaps thousands of residents.
From the viewpoint of physics this is actually quite plausible. There
are large cave systems in various places around the world, generally
where there has been no recent seismic activity to speak of.
Of course, the true believers have a ready explanation for why the
surface people are unaware of what dwells beneath us, and usually the
explanation involved the untimely demise of everyone who ventures into
the inhabited portions of the chthonian realm. Readers of H.P.
Lovecraft are familiar with this.
Regards,
John
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