On 5/7/2011 14:08, Warp wrote:
>    I lived many years without any unexpired official identification document.

In the USA it's kind of interesting. Most places that need ID need "a 
government-issued ID."  Most people use a driver's license; but remember 
that we have at least 50 different kinds of drivers licenses, because 
driving rules are state rules, not federal rules. People in the military 
often use their military ID. And there's passports, but surprisingly few 
people actually have a passport. (I heard that less than half the people in 
*Congress* have a passport.)  Of course, you need a passport to get back 
into the country if you leave(*), so that means most people making our laws 
have never even vacationed in a different country.

"Social security" is basically a federal tax. It started out being *just* 
government guaranteed retirement benefits. Now, of course, the ID number is 
used for pretty much every financial identification, in spite of originally 
being guaranteed to only be used for social security.

But, basically, "social security number" means the ID number that associates 
the payer of taxes with the payments. So to work, you have to pay income 
taxes, and to prove you're allowed to work, you have to provide a social 
security number. So, you have to prove you're allowed to work, which 
involves proving you have a social security number (and hence a SSN card 
plus a photo ID) or proving you're a citizen (hence a passport or birth 
certificate).  Since it's possible to get a driver's license without having 
permission to work, just having ID isn't enough to work.

Other than that, there's very little need to have an "ID" as such. We don't 
even require IDs for voting. (Primarily because we had slaves for much 
longer than most modern civilized countries, and when the slaves got freed, 
none of them had IDs. We also don't have any sorts of tests (history, 
literacy, etc) for voting, for pretty much the same reasons.)

You need a driver's license to drive. You need a passport to pass ports. Of 
course, you also need a credit card to charge something, a prescription to 
get controlled drugs, etc. But you don't really need ID on a normal basis.

(*) Other than, in the past, Mexico and Canada. You'd still need ID, but not 
a passport.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Coding without comments is like
    driving without turn signals."

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On 5/7/2011 14:17, Jim Henderson wrote:
> Passport is expired, renewal is something like $85.  SS card replacement
> is free. :)

That's a fair reason. Personally, I feel better having a passport. ;-)

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Coding without comments is like
    driving without turn signals."

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On 5/7/2011 15:12, Warp wrote:
>    Oftentimes it's difficult to distinguish parody from seriousness.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Coding without comments is like
    driving without turn signals."

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On Sat, 07 May 2011 16:43:05 -0700, Darren New wrote:

> On 5/7/2011 14:17, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Passport is expired, renewal is something like $85.  SS card
>> replacement is free. :)
> 
> That's a fair reason. Personally, I feel better having a passport. ;-)

Oh, I do as well.  Once I've secured something our passports are getting 
renewed.

I found I needed to get my SS card replaced back in September (needed it 
for a drivers' license renewal), but the DMV could take a W2 form.  I 
needed my license to get the SS card replaced, and the passport was 
expired, so I was potentially in some trouble for letting too much go for 
too long.

Jim

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On Sat, 07 May 2011 16:42:14 -0700, Darren New wrote:

> We
> don't even require IDs for voting.

That's true in some states, but not in Utah.  In Utah they require an ID, 
and there's been a lot of discussion about whether or not that 
constitutes a poll tax or not.

Jim

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On 5/7/2011 16:48, Jim Henderson wrote:
> That's true in some states, but not in Utah.  In Utah they require an ID,
> and there's been a lot of discussion about whether or not that
> constitutes a poll tax or not.

Oh, I forgot to add, you can almost always get a government ID for free, or 
the government would have a hard time requiring you to have an ID to get 
various services. E.g., most anywhere you get a driver's license, you can go 
to get a non-driver ID using the same evidence you use to prove your ID.

So, in other words, the ID isn't to ID you. It's to prove you're allowed to 
do whatever the ID is allowing you to do, here. You never actually have to 
prove you are who you say you are, AFAIK. You only have to prove you have a 
right to get what you're after, and sometimes that involves providing some 
sort of ID that can be checked. If the police stop you just walking down the 
road, you don't have to prove who you are, even if they decide to arrest you 
for something.  (The whole "right to not incriminate yourself" is about as 
well supported as the "right to free speech" bit here, unlike many other of 
the supposedly involatile rights.)

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Coding without comments is like
    driving without turn signals."

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On 08/05/2011 12:42 AM, Darren New wrote:
> "Social security" is basically a federal tax. It started out being
> *just* government guaranteed retirement benefits. Now, of course, the ID
> number is used for pretty much every financial identification, in spite
> of originally being guaranteed to only be used for social security.

Interesting fact about SSN
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_number#SSNs_invalidated_by_use_in_advertising

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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> Patrick Elliott<sel### [at] npgcablecom>  wrote:
>> Possible he lost it? Lot of places take photocopies of the stuff you
>> provide, to have it on record that you actually gave a card, not just
>> filled in some numbers.
>
>    It's interesting how different this is between countries.
>
>    In Spain (I have lived there) every single citizens has the same type of
> official identity card. AFAIK it's mandatory to have one and I think it's
> at least in principle even mandatory to have it with you at all times at
> least if you are away from your home town. (If the police demands to see
> your identity card and you don't have it, it might cause some repercussions.)
>
>    In Finland it's much more relaxed. There's no one single official identity
> card. There is an identity card, but it's not mandatory. There are many other
> forms of identity documents that are equally valid, including a driver's
> license and a passport. (In other words, even if the only form of official
> identification you own is a driver's license, it's enough. You don't need
> anything else.)
>
>    I lived many years without any unexpired official identification document.
> (AFAIK this would be unthinkable in Spain.) Had to then get one for practical
> reasons (you can't open bank accounts, get credit cards, etc. without such
> an ID).
>

In Canada, we also have Social Security cards. They only have your name 
and 3 x 3 digits.

Officialy, it's the only card you need and the only legal card. You need 
to write that number on your tax reports, and it should be the only 
place it's used.

In practice, almost nobody have the right to ask you that card, and it's 
not considered acceptable to prove your identity. If fact, a prospective 
employer don't realy have the right to ask for it, but it's tolerated as 
an established practice.
Other than that, nobody have any right to ask you to show it.

As we have provincialy managed universal health care, and that those 
cards now have a photo, it's the de facto universal identity card.
You can also use your driver license, that also have your photo.
Those are also the only ID that can legaly be asked and used as proof of 
your age.



Alain

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On Sat, 07 May 2011 17:23:31 -0700, Darren New wrote:

> On 5/7/2011 16:48, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> That's true in some states, but not in Utah.  In Utah they require an
>> ID, and there's been a lot of discussion about whether or not that
>> constitutes a poll tax or not.
> 
> Oh, I forgot to add, you can almost always get a government ID for free,
> or the government would have a hard time requiring you to have an ID to
> get various services. E.g., most anywhere you get a driver's license,
> you can go to get a non-driver ID using the same evidence you use to
> prove your ID.

Oh, sure - my stepson had a state-issued ID because he hadn't done 
drivers ed.  But I don't think it was free, there still was a cost 
involved.

> So, in other words, the ID isn't to ID you. It's to prove you're allowed
> to do whatever the ID is allowing you to do, here. You never actually
> have to prove you are who you say you are, AFAIK. You only have to prove
> you have a right to get what you're after, and sometimes that involves
> providing some sort of ID that can be checked. If the police stop you
> just walking down the road, you don't have to prove who you are, even if
> they decide to arrest you for something.  (The whole "right to not
> incriminate yourself" is about as well supported as the "right to free
> speech" bit here, unlike many other of the supposedly involatile
> rights.)

That's an interesting point of view, not something I've really thought 
of.  Of course, in order to determine if you're allowed to do something 
or not (like buy cigarettes or alcohol), having your identity verified 
(ie, proving that you are who you say you are) is important.  Otherwise, 
fake IDs wouldn't be a problem - maybe.  Not really thinking as clearly 
at the moment just because of other stuff going on.

Jim

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On 5/7/2011 19:56, Jim Henderson wrote:
> or not (like buy cigarettes or alcohol), having your identity verified

No, that's my point. You only have to prove how old you are, not who you are.

Now, in practice, there isn't really any ID that can prove how old you are 
without also saying who you are, but there's no theoretical reason there 
couldn't be an ID that gives your age and your photo without your name. And 
for this sort of thing, people check your ID but don't record who you are, 
so it's pretty much the same thing.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Coding without comments is like
    driving without turn signals."

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