Employees are a majority, and for once, the majority actually is getting
something that's good for them rather than a minority getting to say how
things are going to be.

It's a shame that you find that idea repulsive.

Jim

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On Fri, 28 Aug 2009 22:17:50 -0500, Shay wrote:

> The employee and I have a contract. He sells me his time and effort at
> an agreed price. Many believe the way you do: that because I have a
> contract with my employee, I owe him whatever YOU believe he may need
> for a "complete" life. That's ludicrous.

What's ludicrous is when the employer dictates the "agreed price" and the 
employee has no choice but to accept the offer or be unable to afford 
some other basic necessity.

Jim

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Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Aug 2009 22:17:50 -0500, Shay wrote:
> 
>> The employee and I have a contract. He sells me his time and effort at
>> an agreed price. Many believe the way you do: that because I have a
>> contract with my employee, I owe him whatever YOU believe he may need
>> for a "complete" life. That's ludicrous.
> 
> What's ludicrous is when the employer dictates the "agreed price" and the 
> employee has no choice but to accept the offer or be unable to afford 
> some other basic necessity.
> 
> Jim

Can I sell you an ear of corn for $1000 if that's what it takes to 
fulfill my needs? Of course not, you as a consumer dictate the "agreed 
price" of that corn.

  -Shay

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Jim Henderson wrote:
> Employees are a majority, and for once, the majority actually is getting
> something that's good for them rather than a minority getting to say how
> things are going to be.
> 
> It's a shame that you find that idea repulsive.
> 
> Jim

define: ownership

GIYF

  -Shay

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Chambers wrote:

> So if you sit in a concrete room, never go anywhere or do anything (and 
> forget listening to music, reading books, or buying clothes even), then 
> you STILL can't afford even a basic health plan.

The poor effectively do not pay income taxes due to the earned income 
tax credit. And $400 for rent? Get a room mate or 10. I did.

> 
> Oh, and that's without factoring in retirement accounts.  Because, you 
> know, people have to save for retirement rather than expect the 
> government to take care of them.

Horrid, isn't it?

> 
> Yeah, great system we have here.

Yes it is, one in which a person is allowed to shape his life. And 
somehow, most of us come out very nicely. I'm a manual laborer for 
Christ's sake, and am still able to afford many luxuries.

> 
> Oh, and did I mention that many employers these days, aside from 
> forbidding overtime, also purposefully limit the hours their employees 
> work so that scheduling problems are easier to solve if they fire 
> somebody?  Many minimum wage jobs are only 20 hours a week, so you can 
> turn off the electricity and forget about eating.

Get a second job. If we'd stop taxing minorities (like business owners) 
into the ground, there would be more opportunity.

> 
> As it is, though, our current system causes a great deal of unnecessary 
> expense.  It works like this:

So why don't we buy the poor safe automobiles, healthful food, 
anti-bacterial soap, surgical masks, latex gloves ... ?

> Insurance companies (and the government) are forced to pay for the 
> treatments.

Get out of each other's pockets. Problem solved.

  -Shay

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On Sat, 29 Aug 2009 00:56:38 -0500, Shay wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Employees are a majority, and for once, the majority actually is
>> getting something that's good for them rather than a minority getting
>> to say how things are going to be.
>> 
>> It's a shame that you find that idea repulsive.
>> 
>> Jim
> 
> define: ownership
> 
> GIYF
> 
>   -Shay

define: majority

GI*Y*F

Jim

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On Sat, 29 Aug 2009 00:55:51 -0500, Shay wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Fri, 28 Aug 2009 22:17:50 -0500, Shay wrote:
>> 
>>> The employee and I have a contract. He sells me his time and effort at
>>> an agreed price. Many believe the way you do: that because I have a
>>> contract with my employee, I owe him whatever YOU believe he may need
>>> for a "complete" life. That's ludicrous.
>> 
>> What's ludicrous is when the employer dictates the "agreed price" and
>> the employee has no choice but to accept the offer or be unable to
>> afford some other basic necessity.
>> 
>> Jim
> 
> Can I sell you an ear of corn for $1000 if that's what it takes to
> fulfill my needs? Of course not, you as a consumer dictate the "agreed
> price" of that corn.

If every provider sells a gallon of gas (better example) for $7/gallon, 
and you need to drive, you're screwed too.

that cuts both ways.

Jim

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Chambers wrote:
> So, you believe that Government is inherently evil and that, given the 
> opportunity, those in power will take every chance they get to screw you 
> in every conceivable fashion just to piss you off?

People are inherently "evil." The majority believe that any exercise of 
power which results in the majority's benefiting is good. The majority 
do not believe in guaranteed rights for minorities. If you are a member 
of a minority (we all are), then that *should* scare the Hell out of you.

> 
> Sorry, but I don't believe that.  Government is no more evil than 
> Corporations or Individuals.

Only much more powerful.

> 
> And your cynicism isn't going to stop me from casting my vote to shape 
> Government into a powerful force for good.  I'm aware that I'll never 
> entirely succeed, but that doesn't mean I can't witness occasional 
> victories, does it?

Cynicism? Look at how popular smoking bans in restaurants are. If I own 
   a house, I can allow my guests to smoke in it, but if I sell hot dogs 
at my house, I cannot, because YOU might want a hot dog. That's all the 
justification it takes to impinge upon my property rights. A hot dog.

I shudder to think what will someone do to my rights over a toothache.

> 
> If you honestly believe Government is so evil, you should put your money 
> where your mouth is and live on a boat in international waters.

Or, support the idea upon which this country was founded: limited 
government.

  -Shay

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Shay wrote:
> so every election cycle, the candidates sell the idea to 
>  people like yourself that the employer owes the employee more and more.

What do you think the employers owe? Isn't a public health care option 
getting the employers to pay *less* than how it is now?

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   Understanding the structure of the universe
    via religion is like understanding the
     structure of computers via Tron.

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Chambers wrote:
> If you honestly believe Government is so evil, you should put your money 
> where your mouth is and live on a boat in international waters.

Somalia is currently the ultimate libertarian playground. :-)

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   Understanding the structure of the universe
    via religion is like understanding the
     structure of computers via Tron.

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