>> For some reason, we live in a culture where it is seen as "desirable" to 
>> not be cleaver.
> 
>   I don't find that very surprising. Just make a google image search
> on "cleaver". Why would anyone want to be that?

OK, so I can't spell very well. I think we've established that one. It's 
actually a miracle I can read or write at all! :-P

>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7435023.stm
> 
>   I have noticed that many people have some kind of conscious, intentional
> mind block for anything involving math.

Definitely.

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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Warp wrote:

>   I think it's just a question of primitive jealousy, which the western
> culture does nothing to fix.
> 
>   "He has done more than me, he thinks he is better than me. I'll teach
> him a lesson."

Definitely.

Much easier to say "intelligent people suck" than to try to actually be 
better than them.

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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On Fri, 04 Jul 2008 06:35:36 -0400, Warp wrote:

> They completely reject the notion.
> It's like they had some kind of fear or phobia, and they like to hide
> behind their "I'm not good at math" defense. Any explanations or
> attempts at teaching will fall to deaf ears. Heaven forbid that they
> ever actually learn math!

The funny thing is that many of these people are very good at doing 
math.  My mom, for example, has always claimed to be a slow reader and 
poor at math.  She has two primary hobbies (one of which she uses as a 
source for income):  Cooking and sewing.  With sewing, she takes patterns 
and scales them to sizes that the pattern doesn't include (up or down) - 
doing fairly complex calculations without even thinking about it to 
resize an odd shape (or more often two or more odd shapes) properly so 
they can be sewn together in a way that it will actually work.  
Similarly, she can scale a recipe properly in her head for however many 
guests are eating.  It's quite amazing to watch - and then she sits down 
to do the taxes, and just gets completely frustrated at all the numbers.

I think it is some sort of a block.

Jim

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Jim Henderson wrote:

> The funny thing is that many of these people are very good at doing 
> math.

Math /= arithmetic. ;-)

*I* suck at arithmetic. It wasn't until I was about 17 that I discovered 
that mathematics involves more than just those sheets of long division 
problems.

(Seriously - why the hell does anybody in the modern era need to be 
fluent at long division? Sure, you should know how it works. But being 
able to finish 50 problems in an hour? That just seems pointless. Get a 
computer!)

There are polynomial equations, derivatives and integrals, the binomial 
theorum, statistical parameters and probability distributions, 
trigonometric ratios, complex numbers and matrix algebra, and why are 
those girls in the corner laughing at me? ._.

> and then she sits down 
> to do the taxes, and just gets completely frustrated at all the numbers.
> 
> I think it is some sort of a block.

No no - *everybody* gets confused as hell by taxes. ;-)

[Why do they make them so complicated? Is it a conspiracy to ensure you 
get them wrong and hand over more money than you're supposed to??]

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> >> For some reason, we live in a culture where it is seen as "desirable" to 
> >> not be cleaver.
> > 
> >   I don't find that very surprising. Just make a google image search
> > on "cleaver". Why would anyone want to be that?

> OK, so I can't spell very well. I think we've established that one. It's 
> actually a miracle I can read or write at all! :-P

  Given the subject of this thread, shouldn't you try to better yourself
at this instead of just using the "I can't spell very well" defense? ;)

> >> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7435023.stm
> > 
> >   I have noticed that many people have some kind of conscious, intentional
> > mind block for anything involving math.

> Definitely.

  Do I see some kind of irony in here? ;)

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> (Seriously - why the hell does anybody in the modern era need to be 
> fluent at long division?

  No such thing as useless knowledge.

  How many people thought high-school math classes were boring and useless,
until they fell in love with POV-Ray?

> > and then she sits down 
> > to do the taxes, and just gets completely frustrated at all the numbers.
> > 
> > I think it is some sort of a block.

> No no - *everybody* gets confused as hell by taxes. ;-)

  Is it really so that in the US, the UK and other places everybody has
to explicitly fill out tax forms each year, specifying all their income,
tax reductions, etc?

  Here in Finland all that is automatic: You receive a pre-filled form
with all your income, tax reductions, etc. already put in. If everything
is correct, you don't have to do anything about it. Only if there's
something not in the form already (for example some significant payment
which has not been notified to the tax officials, or something which is
worth tax reductions) you'll have to add it to the form and return it.

  (Of course for employers it's a completely different matter, but normal
people don't have to worry about that.)

  I would be really surprised if this was not the case in most other
countries too.

> [Why do they make them so complicated? Is it a conspiracy to ensure you 
> get them wrong and hand over more money than you're supposed to??]

  You mean there are no tax returns where you live? That would be odd.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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>> OK, so I can't spell very well. I think we've established that one. It's 
>> actually a miracle I can read or write at all! :-P
> 
>   Given the subject of this thread, shouldn't you try to better yourself
> at this instead of just using the "I can't spell very well" defense? ;)

And who says I'm not trying?

Either way, laughing at me isn't helping anything, is it? :-P

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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On Fri, 04 Jul 2008 12:02:42 +0100, Invisible wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
> 
>> The funny thing is that many of these people are very good at doing
>> math.
> 
> Math /= arithmetic. ;-)

I know.  And what I see my mom do isn't simple arithmetic.  If it were, I 
could handle it (because I'm fairly good at arithmetic).

> (Seriously - why the hell does anybody in the modern era need to be
> fluent at long division? Sure, you should know how it works. But being
> able to finish 50 problems in an hour? That just seems pointless. Get a
> computer!)

I often wondered that as well when I was in college; similarly, I never 
understood the need to understand physics formulae as a computer 
programmer.  If I was writing a simulation for an airplane, I was going 
to have reference materials available for the things that *weren't* in a 
standard function library to make sure I got them right - because it 
sucks to design an airplane that doesn't actually fly because you figured 
the wing cross sections wrong in the simulation or got the airflow 
dynamics equation wrong.

>> and then she sits down
>> to do the taxes, and just gets completely frustrated at all the
>> numbers.
>> 
>> I think it is some sort of a block.
> 
> No no - *everybody* gets confused as hell by taxes. ;-)

What confuses me more is figuring out the right number of deductions for 
withholding.  I'm not keen to give the US government an interest-free 
loan with money I could be *doing* something with (like earning 
interest), but having to pay in requires more discipline than I have to 
save some money to pay what's owed.

> [Why do they make them so complicated? Is it a conspiracy to ensure you
> get them wrong and hand over more money than you're supposed to??]

You might be onto something there.  Here in the US, maybe it's to ensure 
the future employment for all the employees of the IRS.

Jim

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>> (Seriously - why the hell does anybody in the modern era need to be 
>> fluent at long division?
> 
>   No such thing as useless knowledge.

Knowing how to do long division is not useless.

Practicing long division over and over and over and over again, for many 
years on end, is a completely waste of time IMHO. Once you know how to 
do long division, you know how to do long division. What possible 
purpose could there be in spending years doing it over and over again?

>   How many people thought high-school math classes were boring and useless,
> until they fell in love with POV-Ray?

Maybe we should make POV-Ray more popular? Maybe it would make a good 
teaching aid! ;-)

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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On Fri, 04 Jul 2008 07:23:13 -0400, Warp wrote:

> Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
>> (Seriously - why the hell does anybody in the modern era need to be
>> fluent at long division?
> 
>   No such thing as useless knowledge.

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? ;-)

>   Is it really so that in the US, the UK and other places everybody has
> to explicitly fill out tax forms each year, specifying all their income,
> tax reductions, etc?

In the US that is the case if you make over a certain amount in the 
year.  There are a handful of different forms based on how complex your 
income situation is, too; 1040EZ is pretty straightforward, the full 1040 
form is a bit more complicated.  Many people have to have an accountant 
do their taxes.

>   Here in Finland all that is automatic: You receive a pre-filled form
> with all your income, tax reductions, etc. already put in. If everything
> is correct, you don't have to do anything about it. Only if there's
> something not in the form already (for example some significant payment
> which has not been notified to the tax officials, or something which is
> worth tax reductions) you'll have to add it to the form and return it.

A lot of the information that goes onto the US tax form comes from other 
forms; automating the information from employer W2 forms and 1090 forms 
is something that *could* be done if there were sufficient funding and 
motivation at the IRS to automate it instead of sending us a million 
pieces of paper with the information on it.

We've done our taxes electronically the last several years, so at least 
the chances of a calculation error are drastically reduced.  Ironically, 
my dad discovered the early onset of his alzheimer's while doing the 
taxes one year - he caught himself going back for the same information 
over and over and over and over again and decided to get tested.

Jim

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