I want to illustrate my unpublished book manuscript on the book of
Revelation. It took eight years to research and write it, so I am willing to
spend a few years on the graphics!

I want the graphics to be beautiful, friendly, and loving--maybe even for
children--just like my unique understanding of Revelation.

I have fairly well mastered PhotoDraw 2000 Version 2, but find it limited
beyond rather simple graphics. This after working many a tutorial,
"Microsoft PhotoDraw 2000 by Design," and spending hours in their newsgroup.

I recently bought Paint Shop Pro 6, which has a much larger user community
and which can do more sophisticated illustrations. I am finding it a slow
learn, despite time in the newsgroups, because it is more like PhotoShop,
because it can do more than PhotoDraw, and because so many of the tutorials
rightly assume one knows the basics--which I am barely learning.

I also have PhotoShop and Deke McClelland's huge "PhotoShop Bible," but I am
more interested in creating illustrations than in image editing per se.
PhotoShop is, on my computer at least, the most complex graphics program
there is.

I also have the freeware version of Terragen, which I felt might help me do
landscapes for Revelation. I've used it enough to be impressed, but haven't
mastered it. It is a lower priority than dragons and New Jerusalems.

I just downloaded Pov-Ray, which also has a large community and many links
and resources, including these NGs.

I was a computer programmer for many years, beginning with binary code (no
lie) and vacuum tube computers also no lie), working my way up through
assemblers and compilers and today's PCs. I mention this because Pov-Ray
requires programming.

I was also a professional photographer for many years and have a good sense
of color and composition.

My basic question is: If you were a virtually a complete newbie to graphics
except as noted above, and had to learn and do cute, but often elaborate,
illustrations of Revelation (dragon, beasts, four and twenty elders, seven
lamps of fire, the New Jerusalem--to mention but a few), what would be your
program(s) of choice?

In particular, would you favor Pov-Ray over Paint Shop Pro or vice versa?

My current plan is to continue learning Paint Shop Pro, setting aside
Pov-Ray for now, and picking it up when I feel comfortable with Paint Shop
Pro. I am, however, open to other opinions.

Apologies for the long post, and *many* TIA. I find the good people in NGs
to be invaluable resources.

--
Walter Donavan
remove capital letters before replying
Wal### [at] 7staQQgesJHEZcom
http://www.7stages.com
"A Most Unusual Translation of the
Book of Revelation"

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Walter wrote:

> In particular, would you favor Pov-Ray over Paint Shop Pro or vice versa?

It's more a choice between two styles of illustration (and graphics
technologies) than a choice between two softwares.
Paint Shop Pro is a "painting" programme. To make illustrations with it, you
first need to be very competent at hand-drawing.
POV-Ray is a 3D renderer  : you first need to create a 3D model of the scene and
its objects and then the program takes care of the "drawing". You don't really
need to know how to draw but learning the program and modelling objects take a
lot of time, and will often require external utilities.
So it depends on your present skills and available time. If you're already good
at painting and drawing, PSP could be your first choice for this type of rather
complex illustration. Otherwise, a 3D tool like POV-Ray is a possibility. Some
low-cost commercial 3D tools would do too, as they may be easier to learn than
POV (but may miss some of the features that make POV unique).
To take an example : if you need a dragon, and you know how to draw one, it will
an easy task in a paint program provided that you know your editing tools.
However, you'll have to paint it again for every image.
In 3D, you'll need a model of a dragon : you can buy one, model one in an
external modeller, or hand-code it. It will be hard work if you do your own, but
you'll be able to use the model wherever you need it.
Of course you can also mix both technologies, use 3D for special objects and
then add elements in 2D (or vice versa).

G.

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Gilles,

That was very helpful. I saved your response for further reference. Many
thanks!

--
Walter Donavan
remove capital letters before replying
Wal### [at] 7staQQgesJHEZcom
http://www.7stages.com
"A Most Unusual Translation of the
Book of Revelation"

Post a reply to this message

On Wed, 5 Jul 2000 09:36:56 -0400, "Walter" <wal### [at] 7staJFHKgescom>
wrote:

<snip>

>My basic question is: If you were a virtually a complete newbie to graphics
>except as noted above, 

I hate to interrupt, but I wouldn't call you a complete newbie. Gee, I
wish I had any idea about colors and composition.

>and had to learn and do cute, but often elaborate,
>illustrations of Revelation (dragon, beasts, four and twenty elders, seven
>lamps of fire, the New Jerusalem--to mention but a few), what would be your
>program(s) of choice?

>In particular, would you favor Pov-Ray over Paint Shop Pro or vice versa?

None. The computer and software are but mere tools of your creativity,
think of them as (very) expensive paintbrushes. Learn to use the best
of each worlds. I would recommend using POV for the basic setup,
lighting etc. because it's easier to model perspective and realistic
lighting this way. Then, with the basic shapes set up, you can start
drawing over that in PaintShop Pro (or PhotoShop), using the render as
a framework. Of course you can incorporate full renders in your
pictures if this is the easier way to achieve a particular effect or
paste a particular object. Things that come to mind are orbs, wooden
tables, stones, sunbeams etc. You can also use PSP and PS to blend,
mask, post-process and merge different images into one.

If your budget allows it, I would recommend getting Painter (I think
6.0 is the latest version). It is extremely suitable for achieving a
real-life look, be it pencil, charcoal or watercolor. It is nor in the
low pricerange but I think there is a demo available.

I would also recommend a good tablet (if you don't already own one) if
you're planning to hand-draw any parts.

I have seen the aforementioned approach put to good use in real work.
I know some of the people who made the game Tzar: The Burden of the
Crown and I have talked with them about they way the game art (tiles,
units, buildings, still images etc.) and that's exactly what they told
me. The pictures starts on the designer's table as a set of sketches,
then the 3D people model and render it in 3D Studio MAX and then the
artists hand-draw over that render in PhotoShop and Painter.

>My current plan is to continue learning Paint Shop Pro, setting aside
>Pov-Ray for now, and picking it up when I feel comfortable with Paint Shop
>Pro. I am, however, open to other opinions.

May I also suggest trying out Moray? I myself am a hand-coder but I
know it's easier for some users to use a visual modelling environment.
It may or may not help you but either way trying won't hurt you.


Peter Popov ICQ : 15002700
Personal e-mail : pet### [at] usanet
TAG      e-mail : pet### [at] tagpovrayorg

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Walter <wal### [at] 7stajfhkgescom> wrote:
: I was a computer programmer for many years, beginning with binary code (no
: lie) and vacuum tube computers also no lie), working my way up through
: assemblers and compilers and today's PCs. I mention this because Pov-Ray
: requires programming.

  Well, yes and no.

  Firstly, it doesn't require any kind of programming if you make your scenes
with a modeller program like Moray. There you can make a huge variety of
scenes without having to write a single line of povray script code.

  Secondly, this also depends on your definition of "programming". Let's
take this simple example:

  sphere { 0,1 pigment { rgb 1 } }

  Is this a program or not?
  This depends heavily on your definition of a program. One could think that
this is like a line in a windows .ini file telling a program how some setting
should be. Most people do not consider .ini files program source codes.
  On the other hand one could think that those are scripting language
instructions that make the interpreter (povray) do some commands. The only
problem is that it's not exactly a "command" (that says, for example,
"shoot a ray to this direction" or "assign this value to this variable"),
but more like passive data which povray uses for automatically creating
something.
  Now, this is certainly a program:

#declare Ind=0;
#while(Ind<10)
  sphere { x*Ind, 1 pigment { rgb 1 } }
  #declare Ind=Ind+1;
#end

although one could still think that only the lines starting with a # are
commands while the sphere line is only data. Whatever.

: My basic question is: If you were a virtually a complete newbie to graphics
: except as noted above, and had to learn and do cute, but often elaborate,
: illustrations of Revelation (dragon, beasts, four and twenty elders, seven
: lamps of fire, the New Jerusalem--to mention but a few), what would be your
: program(s) of choice?

: In particular, would you favor Pov-Ray over Paint Shop Pro or vice versa?

  This is a bit unfair question in the sense that povray is not a modeller
and it's more designed to render things than to model them. Basicly povray
only reads data and then renders an image from it. It doesn't care where does
that data come from nor it helps you very much in creating that data.
  Povray is more a tool for creating the image file than creating the models
and figures in the image.
  It's like comparing a camera and a pencil. A camera can take a photo of
a scene, but it doesn't help you creating that scene. A pencil can be used
to create both (perhaps a bit loosely speaking).

-- 
main(i,_){for(_?--i,main(i+2,"FhhQHFIJD|FQTITFN]zRFHhhTBFHhhTBFysdB"[i]
):5;i&&_>1;printf("%s",_-70?_&1?"[]":" ":(_=0,"\n")),_/=2);} /*- Warp -*/

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Thank you, Giles, Peter and Warp.

I understand better now. I thought Pov-Ray was a graphics program, but it's
only half the package.

Looks like I have to spend money if I want a complete package. Oh, well.

I do love what ray tracing can do...

--
Walter Donavan
remove capital letters before replying
Wal### [at] 7staQQgesJHEZcom
http://www.7stages.com
"A Most Unusual Translation of the
Book of Revelation"

Post a reply to this message

In article <39676599$1@news.povray.org>, "Walter" 
<wal### [at] 7staJFHKgescom> wrote:

> I understand better now. I thought Pov-Ray was a graphics program, 
> but it's only half the package.
> 
> Looks like I have to spend money if I want a complete package. Oh, well.
> 
> I do love what ray tracing can do...

It really depends on what you want to do...2D image editors are useful, 
no matter what you are doing. And modellers can be helpful in making 
some complex objects quickly, but there are many people who use POV-Ray 
and only POV-Ray to generate images. There are some things that are much 
more efficiently done in POV-Script...mathematical shapes, and highly 
repetitive structures, for example.
A "complete graphics package" would likely have to consist of every 
graphics program ever written, for every platform. POV targets a 
specific niche of computer graphics, and fills it quite well.

-- 
Christopher James Huff - Personal e-mail: chr### [at] maccom
TAG(Technical Assistance Group) e-mail: chr### [at] tagpovrayorg
Personal Web page: http://homepage.mac.com/chrishuff/
TAG Web page: http://tag.povray.org/

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Walter <wal### [at] 7stajfhkgescom> wrote:
: I understand better now. I thought Pov-Ray was a graphics program, but it's
: only half the package.

: Looks like I have to spend money if I want a complete package. Oh, well.

  I make most of my images with povray only.
  It's not necessary to have another program to make an image, but it can
help sometimes a lot.

-- 
main(i,_){for(_?--i,main(i+2,"FhhQHFIJD|FQTITFN]zRFHhhTBFHhhTBFysdB"[i]
):5;i&&_>1;printf("%s",_-70?_&1?"[]":" ":(_=0,"\n")),_/=2);} /*- Warp -*/

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On Sat, 8 Jul 2000 13:33:33 -0400, Walter wrote:
>Thank you, Giles, Peter and Warp.
>
>I understand better now. I thought Pov-Ray was a graphics program, but it's
>only half the package.
>
>Looks like I have to spend money if I want a complete package. Oh, well.
>
>I do love what ray tracing can do...

I use PovRay and nothing else.  I can't draw to save my life,  in moddelers
I get confused and very angry,  so the only option left for me is to hand code 
which gives me all the controle I need, but I've never had to produce any
commercial material or even adhere to someone else's requirements. 

-- 
Cheers
Steve              email mailto:ste### [at] zeroppsuklinuxnet

%HAV-A-NICEDAY Error not enough coffee  0 pps. 

web http://www.zeropps.uklinux.net/

or  http://start.at/zero-pps

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