Nieminen Mika wrote:

>   Sorry, I'm not blaming you or anyone else. I'm just awakening to see the
> cruel world...

I'm guilty as charged. I'm sorry ! I will endeavor to remember to use
your VFAQ when appropriate. Please forgive me. I'm unworthy.
It's not a wasted resource. Please have patience with us. Thank you.
What you have done is a good thing. The community supports your
efforts. Please do not take our short termed memories as an indication
of the potential of the VFAQ. None is better for the answers it contains.
I ask for another chance to redeem myself. You are powerful and wise.
Get well soon. I will make the VFAQ my start up home page so as not
to forget it's tremendous value. Just think of the time it will save me in
typing alone. Wow ! Why hasn't someone else come up with such a
great thing before is beyond me. Remain dauntless und unswerving in
the face of overwhelming odds. I apologize for my short comings.
I will make amends if you will allow me.

Have I blown enough sunshine up your yet yet ?

--
Ken Tyler

tyl### [at] pacbellnet

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In povray.newusers Ken <tyl### [at] pacbellnet> wrote:
: Have I blown enough sunshine up your yet yet ?

  There's no need to be so sarcastic... :)
  Ok, maybe I exaggerated a bit. I'm sorry.

-- 
main(i){char*_="BdsyFBThhHFBThhHFRz]NFTITQF|DJIFHQhhF";while(i=
*_++)for(;i>1;printf("%s",i-70?i&1?"[]":" ":(i=0,"\n")),i/=2);} /*- Warp. -*/

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The FAQ (VFAQ) is a great thing. It is, like the documentation, a vast source of
valuable information. Unlike the docs it could change constantly, inspired on
what's going on in the newsgroups. I've followed some Pascal-groups for a while
and there were certain questions that kept coming up over and over annoying
people (for insiders: the RT200-problem?). There were some people getting more
annoyed each time, there were others ignoring the thread (I did eventually), and
there were still others patiently pointing at the FAQ every time. 
I've seen some questions pop up here more then once, I've also seen different
answers to questions. That's why I like to keep reading the solutions to
problems I think are already solved a zillion times and learning new stuff once
in a while.
Perhaps you could simply change your sig and add the VFAQ-URL so you could reply
to each question with an empty message? That might add to the obfuscatedness of
the message ;-)

Regards,

Remco

Nieminen Mika wrote:
> 
> In povray.newusers Johannes Hubert <jhu### [at] algonetse> wrote:
> : Please face reality:
> : People will always ask questions that are already answered in some FAQ
> : somewhere.
> : You then have three options:
> 
> : 1. Ignore the question, and think "he'll find the answer in the FAQ or some
> : kind soul will help him"
> : 2. Point the person to the FAQ
> : 3. Berate the person about not reading the FAQ and appear really childish by
> : doing this...
> 
>   But this is not "a FAQ". This is "The FAQ". No, no, it's "The VFAQ" ;)
>   You talk about "some FAQ somewhere". Well, I have never seen any FAQ
> anywhere about povray. I have never seen anyone answering something like
> "the answer is in the FAQ located at...".
>   A have also seen that people ask same questions again and again. No matter
> how many times you answer, they will ask the same question again. A question
> which isn't answered anywhere.
>   So this is why I wanted to put those answers in one file so that when
> someone asks the same question again, you can save time and typing by
> answering just "http://something/povVFAQ.html#question".
>   I threw the idea on the news, and the feedback was very encouraging. People
> sent me lots of questions and answers. I also received feedback from people
> who have read it and liked it and who learnt many things about it. It
> seemed like it would be "The FAQ".
>   Now it is out there, and it's the only one I know.
>   When somebody asks a question in the FAQ, I regularly answer with a proper
> URL to the exact location of the answer. Sometimes, specially at the
> beginning, some people answered to questions with the URL to the FAQ (but
> not with the exact location to the answer, ie. with the #parameter after
> the URL).
>   Now I'm the only one who answers with the VFAQ. Even those who sent me
> questions and asnwers have stopped using it (you are one of them, shame on
> you! ;) ).
> 
>   Your reply sounded to me like you were insinuating that I'm a little bit
> hypocrite. Well, maybe that's so, but I sincerely thought that people,
> specially those who contributed in making the VFAQ, were really interested
> in it. I sincerely thought that I was making some worthy for the pov
> community.
>   It's a bit discouraging that one of the contributors answers this way...
> It's a bit disappointing that my work seems to be futile.
>   Sorry, I'm not blaming you or anyone else. I'm just awakening to see the
> cruel world...
> 
> --
> main(i){char*_="BdsyFBThhHFBThhHFRz]NFTITQF|DJIFHQhhF";while(i=
> *_++)for(;i>1;printf("%s",i-70?i&1?"[]":" ":(i=0,"\n")),i/=2);} /*- Warp. -*/

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In povray.newusers Remco de Korte <rem### [at] xs4allnl> wrote:
: I've seen some questions pop up here more then once, I've also seen different
: answers to questions. That's why I like to keep reading the solutions to
: problems I think are already solved a zillion times and learning new stuff once
: in a while.

  That's a good point...

: Perhaps you could simply change your sig and add the VFAQ-URL so you could reply
: to each question with an empty message? That might add to the obfuscatedness of
: the message ;-)

  I want to answer with the _exact_ location to the answer (ie. with the
#-parameter after the url).
  And besides, do you know how much work I did to type that sig? I'm not
changing it! ;)

  Perhaps I'll make some day the same thing with pov-code instead of C...

-- 
main(i){char*_="BdsyFBThhHFBThhHFRz]NFTITQF|DJIFHQhhF";while(i=
*_++)for(;i>1;printf("%s",i-70?i&1?"[]":" ":(i=0,"\n")),i/=2);} /*- Warp. -*/

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To make things clear first:

I thought your VFAQ is a good idea and I even contributed to it with a few
Moray UDO related things.
I *still* think it is a good idea and a good thing to have.

BUT: With creating the VFAQ you simply create a voluntary service maintained
by yourself, which may or may not be used by other people, at *their*
discretion - not yours! The mere existance of the VFAQ does in no way compel
people to *use* it - of course they should (if they know about it), but if
they don't, it's their problem.

For people asking questions that are already answered in the VFAQ that
means: If you don't use the VFAQ you risk that nobody answers your
questions, since everybody knows it is answered in the VFAQ.
For people answering questions that are already answered in the VFAQ: Well,
if they have the time to spare? Why not?
And: Contributing to the VFAQ is equally voluntarily as maintaining it. I
don't remember me having agreed to anything like that with my contribution I
will from then on always study the VFAQ closely and will always point people
to it. Quite frankly: I don't have the time to study the VFAQ, so I don't
know which questions are answered in it, so I can't point people to it
either...

One must keep in mind, that there are always new people coming to a
newsgroup: It's not always the same guys hanging around all the time where
one could truly get mad if such a person would ask a question with an
obvious answer (I can imagine the sarcastic replies we would read if
"Linkmaster" Ken would post a question asking for the URL of, say, Moray, or
if Ron Parker would ask if it was possible to get access to POV-Ray's
sourcecode).

For such a new member of the group, the question actually is *not* a VFAQ,
not even a FAQ. He probably thinks it is the first time this comes up.
Because let's face it: *Nobody* carefully reads *all* older posts in a group
before posting his own first message.
It is only the requlars that read the same question for the 100th time who
get annoyed, while the poster is not even aware of what he is doing. More
important: The poster is probably not even aware of the *existance* of a
FAQ/VFAQ, so there was no chance he could have checked it first. After all,
the URL to your VFAQ is not exactly something each POV user is informed
about right from the start.

Replying to such an "innocent" frequently-recurring posting in a way that
berates or scoldes the asker is not the way. Simply point him to the FAQ or
ignore him. No more. It is not really friendly to give a new member of a
newsgroup a welcome of the sort that he feels stupid and "newbie" right
away, nor is it the best way to introduce yourself (as a regular he will
probably "meet" later again) to him.

Now, that said, I grant you that you probably had the best intentions of
helping the original poster, and I also know that you post frequently and
helpfully, so please don't see my comments to your replies like I would try
to imply that you are a rude, unhelpful, generally annyoing person - no at
all!

Greetings,
Johannes.

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This lighting question reminds me... is it possible to see the source 
code to the algorithms POV uses to compute illumination?

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Ron Parker wrote:

> This lighting question reminds me... is it possible to see the source
> code to the algorithms POV uses to compute illumination?

 I don't understand.

--
Ken Tyler

tyl### [at] pacbellnet

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On Thu, 14 Jan 1999 06:59:44 -0800, Ken <tyl### [at] pacbellnet> wrote:
>Ron Parker wrote:
>
>> This lighting question reminds me... is it possible to see the source
>> code to the algorithms POV uses to compute illumination?
>
> I don't understand.

No, no, no.   You were supposed to follow up with "I heard that it 
might be online somewhere, but I don't have a URL."

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Ron Parker wrote in message <369e0940.0@news.povray.org>...
>On Thu, 14 Jan 1999 06:59:44 -0800, Ken <tyl### [at] pacbellnet> wrote:
>>Ron Parker wrote:
>>
>>> This lighting question reminds me... is it possible to see the source
>>> code to the algorithms POV uses to compute illumination?
>>
>> I don't understand.
>
>No, no, no.   You were supposed to follow up with "I heard that it
>might be online somewhere, but I don't have a URL."

You really blew it, Ken!  :-))

Johannes.

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In povray.newusers Johannes Hubert <jhu### [at] algonetse> wrote:
: BUT: With creating the VFAQ you simply create a voluntary service maintained
: by yourself, which may or may not be used by other people, at *their*
: discretion - not yours! The mere existance of the VFAQ does in no way compel
: people to *use* it - of course they should (if they know about it), but if
: they don't, it's their problem.

  You understood me wrong. I wasn't asking people to use the VFAQ. I wasn't
saying that "you contributed? you should use it as well!".
  I was just wondering _why_ people aren't using it.

  So my message was not this: "Hey, nobody is using the VFAQ. Please, use it."
but instead: "I wonder why nobody is using the VFAQ although it got a good
feedback".

: Quite frankly: I don't have the time to study the VFAQ, so I don't
: know which questions are answered in it, so I can't point people to it
: either...

  But you have time to answer the same questions again and again?

: It is only the requlars that read the same question for the 100th time who
: get annoyed, while the poster is not even aware of what he is doing.

  The point in the VFAQ was not avoiding the annoyance of seeing the same
questions and answers many times. Its goal is to minimize your typing work
and valuable time. Instead of having to type a 10-20 lines answer, you
can answer with a couple of lines (one of which is copypasted from the
browser).

: Replying to such an "innocent" frequently-recurring posting in a way that
: berates or scoldes the asker is not the way. Simply point him to the FAQ or
: ignore him. No more. It is not really friendly to give a new member of a
: newsgroup a welcome of the sort that he feels stupid and "newbie" right
: away, nor is it the best way to introduce yourself (as a regular he will
: probably "meet" later again) to him.

  I'm sorry if I have offended someone with a thing like this.

: Now, that said, I grant you that you probably had the best intentions of
: helping the original poster, and I also know that you post frequently and
: helpfully, so please don't see my comments to your replies like I would try
: to imply that you are a rude, unhelpful, generally annyoing person - no at
: all!

  I know, although sometimes I feel like that (ie. a rude person).

-- 
main(i){char*_="BdsyFBThhHFBThhHFRz]NFTITQF|DJIFHQhhF";while(i=
*_++)for(;i>1;printf("%s",i-70?i&1?"[]":" ":(i=0,"\n")),i/=2);} /*- Warp. -*/

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