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Op 15-7-2023 om 06:01 schreef Mike Miller:
> Nice Job! love the model and material.
> Miller
>
Thanks Mike. This kind of project is a good opportunity to plunge into
the archaeological background of the subject and revisit my bookshelves
on the period (got some dusting to do too) completed with an internet
search of course.
--
Thomas
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Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degroot org> wrote:
> A bit of improvements. [...]
It's looking good, Thomas! I wonder what the purpose of the blade's fluting was?
Actually, I think I know already, but the shape doesn't seem like it was made
for stabbing.
The material is making me wish there were better options for blurry reflections.
(An ancient wish of mine.) We have UberPOV's reflection roughness, but there
doesn't seem to be a way to control the number of samples! If we could specify
just one or two reflection blur samples, we could then use more focal blur and
AA samples to make things look much smoother overall. I'm almost ready to
download the UberPOV source and VisualStudio or whatever I need just so I can
change a few things... but that's a project and a half :/
Anyway, I'm eager to see where this scene leads!
Sam
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Op 17-7-2023 om 01:00 schreef Samuel B.:
> Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:
>> A bit of improvements. [...]
>
> It's looking good, Thomas! I wonder what the purpose of the blade's fluting was?
> Actually, I think I know already, but the shape doesn't seem like it was made
> for stabbing.
>
I think those swords were not used for stabbing but chopping.
Maybe this will interest you:
https://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-trade-blows-in-a-debate-over-whether-ancient-bronze-swords-were-just-for-show
> The material is making me wish there were better options for blurry reflections.
> (An ancient wish of mine.) We have UberPOV's reflection roughness, but there
> doesn't seem to be a way to control the number of samples! If we could specify
> just one or two reflection blur samples, we could then use more focal blur and
> AA samples to make things look much smoother overall. I'm almost ready to
> download the UberPOV source and VisualStudio or whatever I need just so I can
> change a few things... but that's a project and a half :/
>
> Anyway, I'm eager to see where this scene leads!
>
Wait and see... ;-)
--
Thomas
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Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:
> Op 17-7-2023 om 01:00 schreef Samuel B.:
> > [...] the shape doesn't seem like it was made for stabbing.
> >
> I think those swords were not used for stabbing but chopping.
>
> Maybe this will interest you:
>
https://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-trade-blows-in-a-debate-over-whether-ancient-bronze-swords-were-just-for-show
Yeah, that is interesting. I wonder why there was any doubt, though. Why make
swords if you weren't going to use them? Were other, better alloys available
during the middle-to-late part of the Bronze Age? (My history knowledge is
somewhat lacking).
Sam
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Op 18-7-2023 om 00:40 schreef Samuel B.:
> Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:
>> Op 17-7-2023 om 01:00 schreef Samuel B.:
>>> [...] the shape doesn't seem like it was made for stabbing.
>>>
>> I think those swords were not used for stabbing but chopping.
>>
>> Maybe this will interest you:
>>
https://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-trade-blows-in-a-debate-over-whether-ancient-bronze-swords-were-just-for-show
>
>
> Yeah, that is interesting. I wonder why there was any doubt, though. Why make
> swords if you weren't going to use them? Were other, better alloys available
> during the middle-to-late part of the Bronze Age? (My history knowledge is
> somewhat lacking).
>
I think because there still is a lack of knowledge/understanding about
Bronze Age society. There are no accounts or tales; swords are only
known in a funeral rite context, so, what to infer? Obviously, those
telltale marks on the blades had never been studied properly before
(lack of funds and time most probably I guess). Except for variations in
the proportions of the basic alloys locally/regionally or for different
uses, the bronze seems to have been about identical throughout the
period. However, I am no expert on the matter...
--
Thomas
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Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:
> Op 18-7-2023 om 00:40 schreef Samuel B.:
> > Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:
> >> Op 17-7-2023 om 01:00 schreef Samuel B.:
> >>> [...] the shape doesn't seem like it was made for stabbing.
> >>>
> >> I think those swords were not used for stabbing but chopping.
> >>
> >> Maybe this will interest you:
> >>
https://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-trade-blows-in-a-debate-over-whether-ancient-bronze-swords-were-just-for-s
how
> >
> >
> > Yeah, that is interesting. I wonder why there was any doubt, though. Why make
> > swords if you weren't going to use them? Were other, better alloys available
> > during the middle-to-late part of the Bronze Age? (My history knowledge is
> > somewhat lacking).
> >
> I think because there still is a lack of knowledge/understanding about
> Bronze Age society. There are no accounts or tales; swords are only
> known in a funeral rite context, so, what to infer? Obviously, those
> telltale marks on the blades had never been studied properly before
> (lack of funds and time most probably I guess). Except for variations in
> the proportions of the basic alloys locally/regionally or for different
> uses, the bronze seems to have been about identical throughout the
> period. However, I am no expert on the matter...
>
> --
> Thomas
Yeah, rigorous studies are always needed, especially when lacking historical
accounts. Based on my initial research, it seems like the swords were bent or
otherwise destroyed, possibly to 'kill' the weapon and return it to its owner,
or keep it or its metals from being used by others. Seems like a waste of
precious material, but then again we humans are often driven by various (maybe
illogical) ideals and weird beliefs ;)
Sam
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Op 18/07/2023 om 23:22 schreef Samuel B.:
> Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:
>> Op 18-7-2023 om 00:40 schreef Samuel B.:
>>> Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:
>>>> Op 17-7-2023 om 01:00 schreef Samuel B.:
>>>>> [...] the shape doesn't seem like it was made for stabbing.
>>>>>
>>>> I think those swords were not used for stabbing but chopping.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe this will interest you:
>>>>
https://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-trade-blows-in-a-debate-over-whether-ancient-bronze-swords-were-just-for-s
> how
>>>
>>>
>>> Yeah, that is interesting. I wonder why there was any doubt, though. Why make
>>> swords if you weren't going to use them? Were other, better alloys available
>>> during the middle-to-late part of the Bronze Age? (My history knowledge is
>>> somewhat lacking).
>>>
>> I think because there still is a lack of knowledge/understanding about
>> Bronze Age society. There are no accounts or tales; swords are only
>> known in a funeral rite context, so, what to infer? Obviously, those
>> telltale marks on the blades had never been studied properly before
>> (lack of funds and time most probably I guess). Except for variations in
>> the proportions of the basic alloys locally/regionally or for different
>> uses, the bronze seems to have been about identical throughout the
>> period. However, I am no expert on the matter...
>>
>> --
>> Thomas
>
> Yeah, rigorous studies are always needed, especially when lacking historical
> accounts. Based on my initial research, it seems like the swords were bent or
> otherwise destroyed, possibly to 'kill' the weapon and return it to its owner,
> or keep it or its metals from being used by others. Seems like a waste of
> precious material, but then again we humans are often driven by various (maybe
> illogical) ideals and weird beliefs ;)
>
> Sam
>
It probably made a lot of sense at the time. Rites and beliefs were and
still are the means of knitting together social groups, often in
opposition to other groups unfortunately. That is the fundamental
problem social animals like ourselves are born with. Chimps are not
different in that respect, and herding animals have their own picking
order and hierarchies. Martians, I have been told, have outgrown the
problem (which is why they are extinct)... ;-)
--
Thomas
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Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:
> Op 18/07/2023 om 23:22 schreef Samuel B.:
> > Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:
> >> Op 18-7-2023 om 00:40 schreef Samuel B.:
> >>> Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:
> >>>> Op 17-7-2023 om 01:00 schreef Samuel B.:
> >>>>> [...] the shape doesn't seem like it was made for stabbing.
> >>>>>
> >>>> I think those swords were not used for stabbing but chopping.
> >>>>
> >>>> Maybe this will interest you:
> >>>>
https://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-trade-blows-in-a-debate-over-whether-ancient-bronze-swords-were-just-for
-s
> > how
> >>>
> >>> Yeah, that is interesting. I wonder why there was any doubt, though. [...]
> >>>
> >> I think because there still is a lack of knowledge/understanding about
> >> Bronze Age society. There are no accounts or tales; swords are only
> >> known in a funeral rite context, so, what to infer? [...]
> >>
> > [...] Seems like a waste of precious material, but then again we humans are
often driven by various (maybe illogical) ideals and weird beliefs ;)
> >
> It probably made a lot of sense at the time. Rites and beliefs were and
> still are the means of knitting together social groups, often in
> opposition to other groups unfortunately. That is the fundamental
> problem social animals like ourselves are born with. Chimps are not
> different in that respect, and herding animals have their own picking
> order and hierarchies.
The problem with we humans is that our activities tend to have far-ranging
effects. Yeah, everything we do can be considered 'natural', but we also possess
greater reasoning capabilities, and so we have more responsibility compared to
other creatures... Which would imply a degree of free will, which is a whole
other conversation. (For instance if the principle of cause and effect reigns
supreme, how could there be free will? The best I can figure is that there are
'tiers' of free will, but ultimately only one outcome per 'timeline'. [Each
timeline being like a single lightning strike, and all timelines overlapping to
form a fuzzy probability cloud.])
> Martians, I have been told, have outgrown the problem (which is why they are
extinct)... ;-)
Hmm, I would like to know more regarding how something like that would come
about...
Sam
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Op 21-7-2023 om 00:34 schreef Samuel B.:
> Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:
>> Op 18/07/2023 om 23:22 schreef Samuel B.:
>>> Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:
>>>> Op 18-7-2023 om 00:40 schreef Samuel B.:
>>>>> Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:
>>>>>> Op 17-7-2023 om 01:00 schreef Samuel B.:
>>>>>>> [...] the shape doesn't seem like it was made for stabbing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think those swords were not used for stabbing but chopping.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Maybe this will interest you:
>>>>>>
https://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-trade-blows-in-a-debate-over-whether-ancient-bronze-swords-were-just-for
> -s
>>> how
>>>>>
>>>>> Yeah, that is interesting. I wonder why there was any doubt, though. [...]
>>>>>
>>>> I think because there still is a lack of knowledge/understanding about
>>>> Bronze Age society. There are no accounts or tales; swords are only
>>>> known in a funeral rite context, so, what to infer? [...]
>>>>
>>> [...] Seems like a waste of precious material, but then again we humans are
> often driven by various (maybe illogical) ideals and weird beliefs ;)
>>>
>> It probably made a lot of sense at the time. Rites and beliefs were and
>> still are the means of knitting together social groups, often in
>> opposition to other groups unfortunately. That is the fundamental
>> problem social animals like ourselves are born with. Chimps are not
>> different in that respect, and herding animals have their own picking
>> order and hierarchies.
>
> The problem with we humans is that our activities tend to have far-ranging
> effects. Yeah, everything we do can be considered 'natural', but we also possess
> greater reasoning capabilities, and so we have more responsibility compared to
> other creatures... Which would imply a degree of free will, which is a whole
> other conversation. (For instance if the principle of cause and effect reigns
> supreme, how could there be free will? The best I can figure is that there are
> 'tiers' of free will, but ultimately only one outcome per 'timeline'. [Each
> timeline being like a single lightning strike, and all timelines overlapping to
> form a fuzzy probability cloud.])
>
Those are a couple of interesting questions indeed. So, we may assume
that - at some point in human development - the impact of our so-called
free will(?) governed/controlled by environment, climate, society
interactions, psychology, religion of course, etc decisions, started to
increasingly impact on the natural environment of the planet, from local
to global through human history. We seem not to be well-provided with
enough foresight to be able to properly analyse our actions/decisions at
that scale. Or, changes are going too fast for us to adapt in time, I
don't know. This is food for philosophers and sociologists. We, as small
individuals, cannot do much besides being conscious of what may or seems
to be happening before our eyes and - at least individually - try to act
and live consequently. It is a way of life me and my wife have tried
more or less successfully of course, to follow for about the last fifty
years... Not that it changed the world around us obviously, but I have
the illusion that every little drop of water finally contributes to fill
the ocean. Naive, I know.
>> Martians, I have been told, have outgrown the problem (which is why they are
extinct)... ;-)
>
> Hmm, I would like to know more regarding how something like that would come
> about...
>
I brought this up half-jokingly, but it would be an interesting exercise
of what-if analysis. I don't feel really up to the task however.
We seem to be drifting slowly away from the initial goal. ;-)
--
Thomas
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Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:
> Op 21-7-2023 om 00:34 schreef Samuel B.:
> > Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:
> >> Op 18/07/2023 om 23:22 schreef Samuel B.:
> >>> Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:
> >>>> Op 18-7-2023 om 00:40 schreef Samuel B.:
> >>>>> Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:
> >>>>>> Op 17-7-2023 om 01:00 schreef Samuel B.:
> >>>>>>> [...] the shape doesn't seem like it was made for stabbing.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> I think those swords were not used for stabbing but chopping.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Maybe this will interest you:
> >>>>>>
https://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-trade-blows-in-a-debate-over-whether-ancient-bronze-swords-were-just-f
or-show
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Yeah, that is interesting. I wonder why there was any doubt, though. [...]
> >>>>>
> >>>> I think because there still is a lack of knowledge/understanding about
> >>>> Bronze Age society. [...]
> >>>>
> >>> [...] we humans are often driven by various (maybe illogical) ideals and weird
> >>> beliefs ;)
> >>>
> >> It probably made a lot of sense at the time. Rites and beliefs were and
> >> still are the means of knitting together social groups, often in
> >> opposition to other groups unfortunately. That is the fundamental
> >> problem social animals like ourselves are born with. [...]
> >
> > The problem with we humans is that our activities tend to have far-ranging
> > effects. Yeah, everything we do can be considered 'natural', but we also possess
> > greater reasoning capabilities, and so we have more responsibility compared to
> > other creatures... Which would imply a degree of free will, which is a whole
> > other conversation. (For instance if the principle of cause and effect reigns
> > supreme, how could there be free will? The best I can figure is that there are
> > 'tiers' of free will, but ultimately only one outcome per 'timeline'. [Each
> > timeline being like a single lightning strike, and all timelines overlapping to
> > form a fuzzy probability cloud.])
> >
> [...] we may assume that - at some point in human development - the impact of our
> so-called free will(?) governed/controlled by environment, climate, society
> interactions, psychology, religion of course, etc decisions, started to
> increasingly impact on the natural environment of the planet, from local to global
> through human history.
Yeah. Every action made by anything or anyone has an effect everywhere, and all
effects vary in intensity and complexity. Things effect us, we effect things,
yadayada. But we humans are not only able to make things change at local and
global scales (intentionally or not), but we can also potentially change things
solar-wide and beyond. Such is the place we find ourselves.
> We seem not to be well-provided with enough foresight to be able to properly
> analyse our actions/decisions at that scale.
Not at first, and not as a group, no. At least not without proper leadership
and/or collective goals, I'm guessing. But who's to say what's best?
> Or, changes are going too fast for us to adapt in time, I don't know.
Concerning the biggest issues, adapting in time might simply be /not/ doing what
we have been doing up 'til now. E.g. don't let capitalism run too rampant, don't
let leaders be unaccountable, stop producing plastics, start mining asteroids,
etc. We have things we can do, I think. Or maybe it's too late now? idk.
> This is food for philosophers and sociologists.
Eh, it's for anyone who wants to explore these ideas. More minds on these issues
couldn't hurt. Most ideas will be ignored, anyway.
> We, as small individuals, cannot do much besides being conscious of what may or
> seems to be happening before our eyes and - at least individually - try to act
> and live consequently. [...]
Ain't that the truth, and it seems to be the most positive course of action.
This world is going to do worldish things, and the best we can do it stay along
for the ride (and at least try to control our own selves the best we can).
> >> Martians, I have been told, have outgrown the problem (which is why they are
extinct)... ;-)
> >
> > Hmm, I would like to know more regarding how something like that would come
> > about...
> >
> I brought this up half-jokingly, but it would be an interesting exercise
> of what-if analysis. I don't feel really up to the task however.
I am only left with guesses about what you meant. Something to do with a total
lack of hierarchies resulting in some kind of anarchy?
> We seem to be drifting slowly away from the initial goal. ;-)
Oops, haha :D
Sam
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