> May I comment though I did not enter this round?

I can't imagine why not. :-)

-- 
William Tracy
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
|a|f|i|s|h|i|o|n|a|d|o|@|g|m|a|i|l|.|c|o|m|
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
|w|t|r|a|c|y|@|c|a|l|p|o|l|y|.|e|d|u|
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
You know you've been raytracing too long when you see the movie credits 
going by and instead of seeing Lenses by Panaflex it always seems to say 
Lens Effects by Chris Colefax.
Ken Tyler

Post a reply to this message

Well done everybody, cracking entries. I especially like Thomas's images,
which can only be described as epic! Mike's coffee cup made me chortle too.
More detailed comments will be forthcoming soon...

Bill

Post a reply to this message

[I pressed the Send button before having finished, so here it is again, 
complete now]

For a serious lack of time I couldn't comment on the previous, TinaChep 
round, so I
want to be sure to comment on the Before and After!!

"But which came first?" by David Lewis
Of course, how obvious :-) and yet, here is a refreshing version of this
philosophical theme. It is also appropriate that this image be the first one
of the round. I certainly like the way in which the diffrent elements have
been worked out. The hen in particular has personality and looks at the
world in a totally perplexed and embarrassed way as if she were sorry to
have generated such a complex question. In terms of model, she is far
superior to those from e.g. Chicken Run.
The fence too is excellent. A reminder to everybody to study seriously Jaime
Vives Piqueres work!! The only thing I find a little bit distracting, is the
straw which imho could be a tiny bit mor irregular in shape. But that is
really nitpicking (just to have to make a criticism :-)  )

"Mild nudity" by Bill Pragnell
It is a public secret that Bill generates poetical, dreamlike scenes from
very few, simple elements. I certainly admire him for that and wish I could
do the same as I have to constantly fight against my tendency of cluttering
up my scenes. So, yes, I am very much attracted to this pair of images,
which immediately generate a number of questions about the environment (a
building, obviously, with an imprecise function, but who cares?), the girl
(obviously in perfect ease and in her own domain, in the way she carries her
nudity carelessly and yet self-consciously), the bottle of wine (something
to celebrate perhaps? Or just the simple pleasure of enjoying a drink?), the
contrast between daylight and artificial light, together with the emptying
of the bottle, subtly marking the passage of time, and the irreversibility
of the arrow of that same Time.
Technically, I admire the careful building blocks and their subtle texture.
Aiko is Aiko of course and an excellent model. The slight anime aspect of
the girl works well in this scene although in others it might become
distracting.

"The passing away" by Malcolm Findlay
Not obvious, at first, and then it hits hard. If there is a before and
after, then this is it. No need for different images, it is all there. I
particularly appreciate the reference to the IRTC here, and hope it is not a
subconscious depiction of real life.
The scene has been carefully built, with a severe, unrelenting symmetry,
only broken by the flower and the portrait. I wonder what is there, in the
round medallion?
Yes a slightly disturbing scene, and yet particularly attractive. Well done.

"A type of typewriter" by Shay
I very much wonder what the meaning is of this wonderful and intriguing
image? I imagine that the before is the typewriter itself as a metaphore for
the pre-digital creative process, and sublimated into the after as the
creative process itself. Very clever! I cannot entirely see how the image
was obtained and I am curious to hear more about it. Artistically, I would
say that this image could proudly be exposed in any modern art museum.

"yarsocp" by Tek
What can I say? Tek is a master and I am not joking. He hardly needs to
stress the point by showing a 'make-believe' image of is early attempts!
Nobody will believe him, because already then he was way ahead of everybody!
:-)
So, joking apart (after all), one can only study carefully this scene and
learn the trade.

"Aging" by William Tracy
Maybe it did not work out that well, as William says, but still it is a very
carefully built scene, and difficult to do right, despite of the deceptive
"simplicity". Both glasses and cane are well built. Personally, I do not
really see glasses as youth (perhaps because I only wear glasses since my
'old' age :-) )

"First cup" by Mike C
The difficult start in the morning. I am one of those wretched individuals
who need time ("can't you shut up, please?") to start the day properly :-)
This scene is really expressing the change that a cup of coffee ("strong,
please!") can have. Interestingly, Mike has thought about changing the
position of the cup (and only the cup), before and after, and through that
slight change, the whole, deeply felt satisfaction of the invisible drinker
becomes visible, almost more so than through the lifting up of the morning
fogs. And one should not forget the focus on that coffee cup in the before
scene, the whole hypnotic attraction for the black beverage. So, maybe, that
attraction is shifting towards the coffee machine in the after scene? Who
knows?
I like the way in which the environment has been built, effectively, from
simple, well-recognizable objects, immediately setting the stage, without
fuzz. Perhaps... no. I wanted to add some bread crumbs or other things, but
it would distract from the essential.

"Reganomics" by Brian Price
In every sense the societal changes are well-expressed in this composite
scene. It is enhanced by the rigorous symmetry of the scene, even in the
place of the cars (note the 'repairs' on the righthand one!). Everything has
become more dismal. The lots have become smaller, the colors duller, even
the light has lost its power. I think it is very well done. I would only
suggest a bit more textural detail in the road at left perhaps, and a little
lighter at right? Just because they occupy a large and essential part of the
image. Nitpicking really.

"This to that" by Steve Paget
I don't know how you do this, Steve! Still finding time to make such a 
careful and detailed scene? There is that wonderful sense of being seated in 
front of the instruments of the trade, and thinking about what one is going 
to make this time, looking alternatively at the details, choosing, 
discarding... It is just the hand that is going to start the creative 
process that is missing, but its presence is felt very strongly.
Textures are really good, like always, the wood, but especially the metals, 
tarnished or not. The only thing that distracts me a bit is the background 
that is a bit too 'noisy' for my taste. But that is nitpicking again...



Thomas

Post a reply to this message

"William Tracy" <wtr### [at] calpolyedu> schreef in bericht 
news:46379854$1@news.povray.org...
> Very nice.
>
> In my mind, the standout images are "Just a Splash" (mild nudity? More 
> like full frontal nudity, but whatever) by Bill Pragnell (love the 
> lighting--I just wish that the girl's hair didn't levitate over her 
> shoulders in the "after" frame);
Ah yes! the hair! I forgot that in 'my' comments, below  :-)

and Thomas de Groot's "Time of
> Change" (ooh, recurring characters! I could wish for some more detailed 
> textures, but, dang, two complete full-sized detailed scenes? Wow!).
Thank you indeed. I agree about the textures. I basically used Poser's, with 
little editing, except for the hair that needed serious work (not all 
entirely successful)

Thomas

Post a reply to this message

"Mike the Elder" <zer### [at] wyanorg> schreef in bericht 
news:web.463741af62a9bf11bbb988450@news.povray.org...
> Looks great.  Many thanks. I did notice one tiny issue with the new site.
> When viewed full size, images that are too large to fit on the screen at
> current resolution do not seem too offer the usual "zoom-in, zoom-out"
> function. (This is in Mozilla/Firefox - didn't test Brand X.)  This is
> really a fairly trivial issue since one can easily open the image itself 
> in
> a new window where the zoom works just fine.  Thanks again to all who have
> worked on the project.
>

the zoom-in, zoom-out do appear in IE7 though.

Thomas

Post a reply to this message

"Bruno Cabasson" <bru### [at] alcatelaleniaspacefr> schreef in bericht 
news:web.46383f2662a9bf11f5fba6ef0@news.povray.org...
>
> May I comment though I did not enter this round?
>

of course you can!! Highly appreciated, even!

Thomas

Post a reply to this message

"Bill Pragnell" <bil### [at] hotmailcom> schreef in bericht 
news:web.4638fca262a9bf11f08a9dec0@news.povray.org...
> Well done everybody, cracking entries. I especially like Thomas's images,
> which can only be described as epic! Mike's coffee cup made me chortle 
> too.
> More detailed comments will be forthcoming soon...
>

<grin>
thank you indeed, Bill!

Thomas

Post a reply to this message

"Mike the Elder" <zer### [at] wyanorg> schreef in bericht 
news:web.4637b20762a9bf117fdcaa5f0@news.povray.org...
> Comments for TC-RTC March/April 2007
> "Before & After"
>
>
> "A Time of Change" by Thomas de Groot
> Once again, you have demonstrated that you one of the (if not THE) premier
> story tellers of our group.  I really wish Poser were a better program so
> that its figures might do justice to the excellent work you do by way of
> giving your characters life and personality.  As you can tell, I'm still
> not a Poser fan, but I truly admire the job you do in transcending its
> limitations.  Congratulations on another great entry.
>

oh, hum... <grin>  thank you indeed, Mike! I like stories indeed, and this 
one turned out pretty well I believe.
I agree about Poser, but I must say that the program is becoming better (I 
think) especially where skin textures are concerned. There is work to do on 
the hair, especially on the strand-based ones which do not export properly 
to Poseray/Pov-Ray, although FlyerX has started working on that I think. I 
need to experiment a lot more with Poser yet before I can say that I 
'dominate' the program. Clothing is the present challenge I am tackling, as 
this is one of the poorest issues of Poser. Most clothing is really not 
suitable for an average scene. It seems that the Poser world (and Daz world 
even more so) is only partying and living in the Game Zone. That is not my 
cup of tea.

Thomas

Post a reply to this message

"Mike the Elder" <zer### [at] wyanorg> schreef in bericht 
news:web.46388e4662a9bf119cf0aa370@news.povray.org...
>
> This is probably considered "cheating" by simulation purists, but one 
> handy
> technique for bringing out details is to use a "doctored" version of the
> texture for the object in question, in this case the fractal, in which the
> ambient component of the finish is turned down really low and the diffuse
> component is turned up high.  It also usually helps to use only the amount
> of reflection that is necessary and no more.  Additionally, if phong is
> used, avoid low phong_size values, which can contribute to the "white out"
> effect.  I hope this helps.
>

maybe the use of a light_group may help here?

Thomas

Post a reply to this message

Thomas de Groot wrote:


> "A type of typewriter" by Shay
> I very much wonder what the meaning is of this wonderful and intriguing
> image? I imagine that the before is the typewriter itself as a metaphore for
> the pre-digital creative process, and sublimated into the after as the
> creative process itself. Very clever! I cannot entirely see how the image
> was obtained and I am curious to hear more about it. Artistically, I would
> say that this image could proudly be exposed in any modern art museum.
> 

Nicely put.  For me this image is nothing short of a brain punch. I feel 
like you've at least offered me a stool to sit on after I pick myself up 
off the mat and try and think about it some more.

In an earlier thread, Shay threw down a challenge to himself:
to produce...
"an image that is on topic yet still relevant
outside of the competition."
and...
one that 'will make people think, "You know, it's not just the
kiddie pool over there, those POV-Ray guys have something interesting or
high quality to offer."'

He has done that.  Another idea he advanced was his refocused desire to 
understand when comes the point of diminishing returns in his 
entry-creating process, and act apon it.  He has answered that desire 
also.

This work challenges us conceptually, as Shay's works always do, but 
this time he has left the door open and allows us to make some easier 
connections between the image and the underlying idea.  That was not 
always so in the past.  But there are still loose ends,... still bits of 
this to ponder. This appears like a photo of a typewriter keyboard, yet 
I cannot think of a typewriter that actually looks like this.

The work also challenges us stylistically.  I had always viewed ascii 
art as a stylization based in reduction of means.  I had missed its 
inherent potential to reveal process.  But as you have pointed out, this 
is exactly what Shay has used it to do.  The result is stylistically 
sophisticated and visually delightful.  And I agree, the interplay 
between stylistic improvisation and conceptual morphing is as tightly 
drawn as in many a high-brow, museum work of art.  I love how as the 
keys file off in linear perspective, they blur into textual "noise." 
Just wonderful.

All the usual tricks are there.  The "self-reference" of a keyboard 
depicted with keystrokes, strokes of "literal" typeface, but rasterized 
into a 3d photo illusion, (the traditional objective of raytracing.) The 
illusion is obtained primarily through color, not tone, (try throwing 
this picture into an image editor and desaturating it.)  The color is 
the result of a mix. Each letter is a "primary" from the rgb palette, 
"literal" in a sense. These primaries are then mixed through overtyping 
via the raytracer. The derived color leads to a photo-like illusion, yet 
the usual way that a raytracer modulates color to produce a 3d illusion 
is bypassed and ignored.

Before and after?  Lots of possibilities here.

Post a reply to this message

Hello,

I apologize for the late comments; I just haven't had
much time lately.

First I would like to thank ~Steve~ for the work it has
taken to continue the contests.  I never had the chance
to participate in the IRTC, so being able to participate
in this contest really made my day :-)


"But which came first?" by David Lewis
This image is great.  The work on the fence is just amazing.
I can't imagine all the work it must have taken to make the
chicken, but I love the chicken.  The lighting really makes
all of it blend together well.  Nice job!


"Just a splash" by Bill Pragnell
I like the concept.  In my opinion, the bricks and the lighting
really make this image.  The lighting in the "after" image really
brings out the details of the glass.  Beautiful entry!  And when
you finish with your brick weathering macro, do share! ;-)


"The Passing Away" by Malcolm Findlay
The first thing that struck me when saw this image was the
name on the headstone.  It says in your text file that you
were trying to convey "the liveliness, beauty that exist before
death which post-death becomes a mere memory and shadow of
these things", but I can't seem to get past my own thoughts of
what has happened to the IRTC.  The ray-traced image for the
picture by the headstone is fantastic.  The grass, the dirt,
the headstones, the wall in the background, the petals for the
flower, all in all it looks like it took a lot of work but
obviously worth it.  Wonderful concept and nice image!


"A Type of Typewriter" by Shay
This is an image I would like as a poster on my wall -
somewhat abstract yet logical.  I don't quite understand how
this was created as I think it's over my head.  But it's
beautiful none the less.  Nice work!


"Yet Another Reflective Sphere on a Checkered Plane" by Tekno Frannansa
Truly inspiring.  I even like the "before" image! ;-)
Not much else comes to mind except that it's a great concept,
and just an incredible image.  Something to study when I get
the time.  Thank you for sharing your work!


"Aging" by William Tracy
I think this image is great just by - but not limited to -
its simplicity and the concept - expressing age through
objects one would own at different periods of time through
life.  Those glasses look difficult to create, but the cane
is just wonderful - the texture, the highlights.  Nice work!


"1st Cup of the Morning" by Michael Chelmecki
If we had the chance to vote in this contest, I would probably
vote for this image.  Not only can I so thoroughly relate
to what this image expresses, but to so eloquently express
that feeling through an image is incredible.  The kitchen
appliances, the other objects, the lighting, the cup -
really nice work!


"A Time of Change (before and after)" by Thomas de Groot
Both before and after images are really impressive.  The
textures on the walls in the "before" image, the houses,
and all the other objects in both scenes are very nice.
I think what impresses me the most - beside the fantastic
work on the objects and textures in these scenes - is your
ability to bring out the human feeling in the models.
Really nice work!


"This to That" by Steve Paget
This is simply amazing work.  I don't even want to think
of the time it would take me to create some of those objects
in Wings.  Even without considering the time constraints
you must have had, I think you did an amazing job on this
image.  Nice concept as well!


So there you have it.  If I failed to mention anything anyone
created here that they especially liked about their work, please
don't take it personally; I'm new to commenting as I'm new to
entering these contests.  And thanks again for giving me the
opportunity to participate.  I had a lot fun.

~Brian A.

Post a reply to this message

"Jim Charter" <jrc### [at] msncom> schreef in bericht 
news:463bc92c$1@news.povray.org...
> Thomas de Groot wrote:
>
>
>> "A type of typewriter" by Shay
>> I very much wonder what the meaning is of this wonderful and intriguing
>> image? I imagine that the before is the typewriter itself as a metaphore 
>> for
>> the pre-digital creative process, and sublimated into the after as the
>> creative process itself. Very clever! I cannot entirely see how the image
>> was obtained and I am curious to hear more about it. Artistically, I 
>> would
>> say that this image could proudly be exposed in any modern art museum.
>>
>
> Nicely put.  For me this image is nothing short of a brain punch. I feel 
> like you've at least offered me a stool to sit on after I pick myself up 
> off the mat and try and think about it some more.
>
You are welcome, Jim! Glad to be of help  :-)
Excellent analysis (as always)

Thomas

Post a reply to this message

"Brian A. Price" <nomail@nomail> wrote:
....
> "1st Cup of the Morning" by Michael Chelmecki
> If we had the chance to vote...

Your comments were so overly generous that I was too embarrassed to repeat
them, but I thank you for them nonetheless.

Regards,
Mike C.

Post a reply to this message

Mike the Elder wrote:
> "Brian A. Price" <nomail@nomail> wrote:
> ....
>> "1st Cup of the Morning" by Michael Chelmecki
>> If we had the chance to vote...
> 
> Your comments were so overly generous that I was too embarrassed to repeat
> them, but I thank you for them nonetheless.
> 
> Regards,
> Mike C.

I was just thinking about this image. (Oh boy, here we go...)

What it really needs is some sort of double vision effect in the before 
panel. Somehow have two cameras slightly apart (about the distance that 
human eyes are apart) and point both at the mug, then overlay the outputs.

I suppose you could do it in POV with some trickery involving 
semi-transparent mirrors?

Anyway, while I'm commenting, that coffee mug is beautiful. :-)

-- 
William Tracy
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
|a|f|i|s|h|i|o|n|a|d|o|@|g|m|a|i|l|.|c|o|m|
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
|w|t|r|a|c|y|@|c|a|l|p|o|l|y|.|e|d|u|
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
You know you've been raytracing too long when other people's Images 
directories contain N00D G1F$ downloaded from the Net. Your Images 
directory contains raytraces that you upload *to* the Net.
Jeff Lee

Post a reply to this message

"Thomas de Groot" <t.d### [at] internlDOTnet> wrote in message 
news:4639c954$1@news.povray.org...
> "yarsocp" by Tek
> What can I say? Tek is a master and I am not joking. He hardly needs to
> stress the point by showing a 'make-believe' image of is early attempts!
> Nobody will believe him, because already then he was way ahead of 
> everybody!
> :-)
> So, joking apart (after all), one can only study carefully this scene and
> learn the trade.

Thanks! :-D
And thank you to everyone else who's commented.

Though I do feel obliged to point out it's *just* a sphere on a checkered 
plane. I think I need to challenge myself with a bigger scene, something 
with people. Spheres & checkered planes are evidently not an area that I 
need to work on any more!

-- 
Tek
http://evilsuperbrain.com

Post a reply to this message

Ok it's about time I wrote some comments:

But which came first? - David Lewis
I love the expression on the chicken's face! Good modelling on the chicken. 
There's some issues with the textures in the scene, noteably the chicken's 
beak, the low-res wood, and the normal on the feathers which makes them look 
a bit like stone. The lighting is good if it's meant to be night time, the 
black under the fence suggests no light outside, which seems a little odd 
but not "wrong" as such. Anyway it made me laugh which always means I like 
it!

Just a splash - Bill Pragnell
I'm a big fan of surrealism but personally the nudity and background of this 
scene seem completely arbitrary. In my opinion the concept would come across 
better in a more realistic setting. Anyway, regardless of the reason it's 
there, the scene looks nice (well you can't go wrong with a cute naked girl 
really!). I particularly like the isosurface stones. The concept is good, 
though I really didn't get it until I read the title. On the whole it just 
needs a dose of reality such as: clothes, real background (or at least a 
ladder!), spilt drops of wine/stains on the rock, the empty glass & bottle 
being in a slightly different position to the full ones, a blue sky in the 
background on the left (or no yellow one on the second image). Anyway I'm 
probably analysing too much but despite being a very clean & pretty scene, 
it just doesn't quite work for me.

The Passing Away - Malcolm Findlay
Much improved from the WIPs posted on p.b.i. Very nice concept, with 
emotional resonance for anyone who's looking at the 3drtc. Critically I'd 
say the scene looks very flat, which is caused by having mostly flat 
objects, and the light is almost directly behind the camera. Placing the 
light in a more interesting place and having more variety of objects (e.g. 
different shaped grave stones, rounded edges on the stones) would really 
make things look more interesting. Anyway, having seen this image develop 
I'm impressed with the improvement in your pov skills, I look forward to 
your next image!

A Type of Typewriter - Shay
Wierd. Seriously if you do something this strange *please* provide us with 
an explanation of what it is! I *think* what you're doing is a picture of an 
orange & blue typewriter, drawn with ascii-art. Presumably ascii art is the 
"after" and the typewriter is the "before". Though what you've got isn't 
really ascii art in the conventional sense, but I don't mean that as a 
criticism. I think the thing that bugs me about this image is that the 
characters making up the picture seem to be completely random. They're 
letters, but they aren't chosen to best represent the shapes they're 
imitating, or to have some kind of hidden meaning spelt out. Anyway I don't 
find it all that aesthetically pleasing and I'm mostly just confused when I 
look at it. Sorry! :-/

Aging - William Tracy
Ok I slightly spoilt this image for myself by mis-interpretting the glasses 
as being like those worn by Dame Edna Everage, who is hardly a symbol of 
youth! Anyway I get it now. I love the minimalism, I realise that's perhaps 
a stupid thing to love in ray tracing but it really works here. The cane 
looks a bit plastic, but otherwise I have no criticisms of this image! It 
does what it does very nicely.

1st Cup of the Morning - Michael Chelmecki
I know the feeling! Great use of focal blur and I like the unconventional 
composition. The main thing I'd criticise is it has that high ambient-light 
look that a lot of CG images have, which always really annoys me. I think an 
interior scene like this really needs radiosity. On a similar note, the 
light inside the room seems to be so bright we can't see any daylight 
shining through the window blinds. On the positive side, your kitchen has a 
pretty decent quantity of things in it, though it's far cleaner than my 
real-world kitchen. Particularly impressed that you included a half-full 
coffee maker! It's the little details that work. One final thought: try a 
bit of vignetting, particularly on the left image (i.e. make the image 
darker at the corners than in the middle), for the camera-equivalent of 
half-open eyelids.

Reganomics - Brian A. Price
First of all I have to admit I don't really understand the politics or 
economics or whatever that this image represents. So to my mind those 2 
images are backwards from how I normally think of the development of the 
world. Anyway, short of spending time reading up on Reaganomics, I'm just 
gonna assume your concept is better informed than me and comment on the 
technical/artistic side of things! I like the symmetric composition, right 
down to the cars and the height of the distant building. There's really good 
attention to detail, like the way each house has a different paint job, the 
fact there's a stop sign at the factory, the shadow of a tree on the yellow 
building. Though I think it could do with a little more work on the 
materials (e.g. reflective windows, gloss paint, road markings!) and the 
lighting (e.g. lower ambient light should make everything look much less 
cartoony).

A Time Of Change - Thomas de Groot
Wow! I was impressed when I opened the first image, studying it for the many 
signs of time passing, I spent maybe 5 minutes looking at it before 
realising it was the first of 2 images! Individually either one of these 
would be a great illustration of concept, but together they show a really 
well thought out and thoroughly explored idea. By way of constructive 
criticism I'd say this suffers that high-ambient light look of several other 
images in this contest. The shadowed areas are a very flat and grey looking, 
in a scene with a blue sky I'd expect blueish shadows and yellowish light. 
The flatness is very noticeable on the ivy at the top of the wall, where the 
sun hits it it looks really realistic, but in shadow it looks like a flat 
green shape. Anyway enough nit-picking, the shear amount of thought and 
variety of objects in these images makes the rest of us look lazy! Awesome 
work!

This to That - Steve Paget
Interesting interpretation of the topic, very well suited to being a still 
life. The background image really clashes badly with the colours and layout 
of the foreground, which really emphasizes the fact that this image isn't 
real. If that background wasn't visbile in direct comparison to the CG 
objects the scene would look a lot better. Anyway aside from looking too 
clean this scene's pretty realistic IMO. All the objects need to be bumpy 
and less shiny, apart from the metal tools which need to be more shiny. But 
the octahedron pieces of rock, the diamonds, and the pieces of gold look 
very good. For some reason the chunks of gold are a more gold colour than 
the finished cross. Anyway there's a lot of detail in the scene, I hope you 
keep working on it to remove the excessive "perfection" because I think it 
has the potential to be really realistic.

-- 
Tek
http://evilsuperbrain.com

Post a reply to this message

"Tek" <tek### [at] evilsuperbraincom> schreef in bericht 
news:463d4743@news.povray.org...
> A Time Of Change - Thomas de Groot
> Wow! I was impressed when I opened the first image, studying it for the 
> many signs of time passing, I spent maybe 5 minutes looking at it before 
> realising it was the first of 2 images! Individually either one of these 
> would be a great illustration of concept, but together they show a really 
> well thought out and thoroughly explored idea. By way of constructive 
> criticism I'd say this suffers that high-ambient light look of several 
> other images in this contest. The shadowed areas are a very flat and grey 
> looking, in a scene with a blue sky I'd expect blueish shadows and 
> yellowish light. The flatness is very noticeable on the ivy at the top of 
> the wall, where the sun hits it it looks really realistic, but in shadow 
> it looks like a flat green shape. Anyway enough nit-picking, the shear 
> amount of thought and variety of objects in these images makes the rest of 
> us look lazy! Awesome work!
>

Thank you indeed, Tek!
I think that most of your comments about the light will be answered when the 
radiosity version of the Before image will become available. That is going 
to take some time.

Thomas

Post a reply to this message

"Tek" <tek### [at] evilsuperbraincom> wrote:

> The Passing Away - Malcolm Findlay
> Much improved from the WIPs posted on p.b.i. Very nice concept, with
> emotional resonance for anyone who's looking at the 3drtc. Critically I'd
> say the scene looks very flat, which is caused by having mostly flat
> objects, and the light is almost directly behind the camera. Placing the
> light in a more interesting place and having more variety of objects (e.g.
> different shaped grave stones, rounded edges on the stones) would really
> make things look more interesting. Anyway, having seen this image develop
> I'm impressed with the improvement in your pov skills, I look forward to
> your next image!


Thanks Tek. Also thanks to you for the advice that led to quite a bit of he
improvement from the WIPs to the finished product. I admit that quite a lot
of the image was about the concept and not the technical detail. To be
honest I have never been to a proper war graveyard so was really working
entirely from photos off google images. And despite being useful when
looking to do technical stuff I like to know more about the subject.
However after having the idea and realising the possibilities I didnt want
to turn back. Hmmm, about that next image ... Black robe is challenging me
as I havent really worked with clothing before so it is all very
experimental for me.

Thanks againfor the comments and help,

Malcolm

Post a reply to this message

Thanks to William Tracy and Tek for the comments.

As it happens, I did briefly consider some sort of double vision effect for
the “before” image, but I was running out of time.  POV-Ray normally
disables any previously specified cameras when a new one is added.  I
haven’t gotten around to researching whether or not there is a way around
this. (If anyone happens to know the answer, the info would be
appreciated.)  Each render of the “before” half with focal blur and fog was
taking about eight hours. Smaller “test” renders only gave a limited sense
of how well a given group of settings was working.  I ended up having time
to run only three versions and having to use the one that came closest to
what I wanted even though I saw much room for improvement.  The lighting on
the “after” image was an attempt to create the antithesis of the “before”
image to the greatest extent possible.  I wanted everything to be even
cleaner and brighter and sharper than in real life.  I knew that I was
sacrificing some photo-realism for the purpose of emphasizing mood, but
given the way folks have responded, I suppose I ought to give some
consideration to the notion that I may have leaned too far in that
direction.

Now is probably as good a time as any to share a few thoughts I have
regarding what seems to be an assumption with respect photo-realism that
often enters into discussion of ray trace images.  I would like to preface
these remarks by stating categorically that I appreciate all constructive
criticism in the helpful spirit in which it is intended and am genuinely
thankful towards those who have given their time and effort in regard.
This being said, I would encourage anyone who does engage in criticism of
ray trace art (or in the making of it) to refrain from assuming that the
highest degree of photo-realism possible is or ought to be every artist’s
goal.  The folks who have worked so hard to develop the capability of the
software to produce ever increasing levels of realism are to be
congratulated for their achievement and thanked for having given artists
new choices and new tools.  Certain artists have creatively used this
capacity for advanced optical realism to produce stunning and sophisticated
works of art.  IMHO, however, it is a mistake to assume categorically that a
more realistic work is inherently superior to one that is less realistic.
My personal preference with respect to my own work is to create images that
are often more “graphic” than photographic in quality.  I happen to find
images composed of geometric shapes with clean edges and “hard” shadows
aesthetically pleasing. (Magritte and de Chirico are among my favorite
painters.)  The power of art lies largely in its potential to create new
worlds to experience rather than simply replicating the existing one.
Given the subjective nature art, that which makes an image more pleasing to
one person is bound to make it less pleasing to another.  There is no single
objectively correct point of view.  Working toward the nth degree of realism
is a choice, not an obligation.

I note that I have gotten a bit long winded here and promise to avoid making
a habit of it.

Again, my profound thanks to all who participate in making ray trace art
work a community enterprise.

Best Regards,
 -Mike C.

Post a reply to this message

"Mike the Elder" <zer### [at] wyanorg> wrote in message 
news:web.463f38ba62a9bf11d44974430@news.povray.org...
> Now is probably as good a time as any to share a few thoughts I have
> regarding what seems to be an assumption with respect photo-realism that
> often enters into discussion of ray trace images. ...

I certainly appreciate that there's no need to go photo-real with an image. 
I'm a big fan of stylised graphics. But in the case of your image I thought 
that you were trying to be realistic. There was no obvious stylistic signs 
beyond those I normally associate with people who haven't got the hang of 
photo realism, such as excessively flat lighting & simple texturing. If this 
was an intentional stylistic decision than that's fine, but I have no 
suggestions how you could improve it!

To my mind stylistic stuff works best when it clearly shows awesome 
technical skills, but clearly pointed in a direction other than reality. For 
example Pixar's The Incredibles, not at all realistic but also bearing no 
resemblance to naive CG. With Pixar you're left in no doubt that they could 
do photorealism if they wanted to!

Anyway I apologise if my presumption that you were attempting photorealism 
caused any offence.

-- 
Tek
http://evilsuperbrain.com

Post a reply to this message

Hi Folks, seeing as I was completely rude and didn't comment on the last 
TC entries, I thought that I'd better comment this time around, or I'll be 
sent to the PoV naughty step.   ;)  (Actually, I do have a .txt file half 
finished sitting on my desktop, so I tried).

  Ok, here they are for this round:

   "But Which Came First?" By David Lewis

   When I received this image and opened it, I smiled, and thought; "How 
good is that, kind of in the same style as H.E. Day's 'Midnight on the Farm' 
image", which I also really liked. I think you've done a great job on the uv 
mapping and especially on the fence. I think the lighting and overall colour 
of this image is good, it's pleasing to the eye, and I think it could also 
have done with a bit more straw. Nice image and a good take on the subject.


  "Just A Splash" By Bill Pragnell

     As ever, another nice image from Bill. For some reason that I can't 
work out, this 'place' makes me think that it's *very* high in the sky - 
like a window on an extremely tall tower of a fairytale castle. I really 
like her... eyes, and the poses are good. I think I would have attempted to 
do something about her elbow creases in the 'after' image as they don't 
quite look right to me, (but I think this is inherent of Daz/Poser models).


  "The Passing Away" By Malcolm Findlay

    This image does indeed convey 'Before and After'. I like your technique 
in producing the picture, he does look like a soldier of the Povers 
Regiment. I think your text is probably ok, and maybe I would have moved the 
shadows around a little to stop that illusion of the text being deeper on 
the left-hand side. I don't know, but worth a try.


  "A Type of Typewriter" By Shay

    When I looked at this image, I immediately knew where you were coming 
from Shay, and it wasn't a surprise to see that you've come up with yet 
another good example of your techniques and work. I see the old typewriter 
as the 'before' and "what you can do with text now" as the 'after'. I don't 
know how you do this stuff Shay, but don't stop.


  "Yet Another Reflective Sphere on a Checkered Plane" By Tek

     Ah yes, we've all been there with your 'before' image Tek! :) Not much 
I can say about this as there really isn't much to add, apart from I think I 
would have been tempted to put a camera man in the reflection as someone 
else mentioned. Well executed and very realistic image.


   "Aging" By William Tracy

     Again, not much to say about this image apart from I like its 
simplicity, it kind of reminds of a billboard advertisement for a show 
that's on at the theatre, (and a good advertisement it would make too). The 
modelling is really good and I like the finish on the walking stick.


  "1st Cup of the Morning" By Mike Chelmecki

   Great interpretation of the subject Mike, and yes, I did laugh. It had 
been like that for me that very morning.  :)

  If this image was produced 'hastily', then you did a good job. I think 
you've got the focal blur just right, it really brings the focus of the 
viewer to the most important thing in the morning; coffee. I think I would 
have added a table leg to the left-hand side of the table, but at first, I 
didn't really notice it.


   "Reganomics" By Brian Price

     I was left a little confused about which way you're trying to convey 
the subject. Is it that the nice houses on the left had to be flattened so 
that industry could move in, and therefore, that's depicted in your 'after' 
image? Or is it that "here's a nice clean neighbourhood, and that's the 
dirty industry we have to live with"? I don't know, but if the latter, then 
more grime and dirt would have been good in the 'after' image. The modelling 
is good, and I can understand why you got burned-out on it as a lot of work 
was put into this.


  "A Time of Change" By Thomas de Groot

    Ah, just excellent Thomas! I like both of these. In the 'before' image, 
I like the use of the posters through the archway, the girl running in the 
background, the guys leaning against the wall, the good use of Ivy 
Generator, etc. etc. etc. I like it all, it all works. In the 'after' image, 
I like that these are the same people but now a lot older too. The structure 
is definately what some town might do for that courtyard, and I'm sure I've 
seen similar in RL. Good work once again.


  ~Steve~

Post a reply to this message

As everyone else said, fire away Bruno, comments are good!   :o)

   ~Steve~

Post a reply to this message

"Mike the Elder" <zer### [at] wyanorg> wrote in message 
news:web.4637b20762a9bf117fdcaa5f0@news.povray.org...

> OK, Steve, time to 'fess up... TWO web sites, a job, a life AND this great
> image.  Just how many times DID you clone yourself?  Seriously, a really
> nice job.

     Heh, thank you, but make that FOUR websites, (you should see the BIG 
one!)  :)

      ~Steve~

Post a reply to this message

"Thomas de Groot" <t.d### [at] internlDOTnet> wrote in message 
news:4639c954$1@news.povray.org...

> "This to that" by Steve Paget
> I don't know how you do this, Steve! Still finding time to make such a 
> careful and detailed scene? There is that wonderful sense of being seated 
> in front of the instruments of the trade, and thinking about what one is 
> going to make this time, looking alternatively at the details, choosing, 
> discarding... It is just the hand that is going to start the creative 
> process that is missing, but its presence is felt very strongly.
> Textures are really good, like always, the wood, but especially the 
> metals, tarnished or not. The only thing that distracts me a bit is the 
> background that is a bit too 'noisy' for my taste. But that is nitpicking 
> again...

     Thank you Thomas! Yes, I was torn about using that background, I should 
have experimented more. I'm glad that I did this image though, because as 
it's more or less complete, it means I can just play with textures and 
finishes now, (and the background), which should hopefully improve it.

      ~Steve~


> Thomas

Post a reply to this message

"Brian A. Price" <nomail@nomail> wrote in message 
news:web.463bf3ad62a9bf114af133620@news.povray.org...

> This is simply amazing work.  I don't even want to think
> of the time it would take me to create some of those objects
> in Wings.  Even without considering the time constraints
> you must have had, I think you did an amazing job on this
> image.  Nice concept as well!

   Thank you Brian! Yes, I'm really getting used to Wings now, and 
everything seems to be getting faster when using it so maybe that's the 
reason I can produce what seems to be like a complex image in a reasonable 
time. As ever, I think I've got to improve on my textures, but I think I'm 
getting there.

  ~Steve~



> ~Brian A.
>
>
>

Post a reply to this message

"Tek" <tek### [at] evilsuperbraincom> wrote in message 
news:463d4743@news.povray.org...

> Interesting interpretation of the topic, very well suited to being a still 
> life. The background image really clashes badly with the colours and 
> layout of the foreground, which really emphasizes the fact that this image 
> isn't real. If that background wasn't visbile in direct comparison to the 
> CG objects the scene would look a lot better.

    I think you're dead right. I was torn about using that background but 
settled for it in the end. Now the scene is set, I'll experiment more with 
it.



Anyway aside from looking too
> clean this scene's pretty realistic IMO. All the objects need to be bumpy 
> and less shiny, apart from the metal tools which need to be more shiny. 
> But the octahedron pieces of rock, the diamonds, and the pieces of gold 
> look very good.

     For the rough diamonds, I used scattering and emitting media which I 
failed to mention in my text file! But it seemed to work ok.


For some reason the chunks of gold are a more gold colour than
> the finished cross.

    Yes, something else I should have explained in my text file! The gold 
grain that you see there is actually what is known as 'fine' gold, ie, pure 
gold, or .999 carat, or a more broader term, 24ct gold. When you see 24ct 
gold, it's really more orangy than when it's been alloyed with other metals 
to make a lesser carat of gold, like 9ct or 18ct, hence the colour 
difference.


Anyway there's a lot of detail in the scene, I hope you
> keep working on it to remove the excessive "perfection" because I think it 
> has the potential to be really realistic.

     Thank you Tek! I will keep on working on this.

     ~Steve~


>
> -- 
> Tek
> http://evilsuperbrain.com
>
>

Post a reply to this message

"Mike the Elder" <zer### [at] wyanorg> wrote:
> Thanks to William Tracy and Tek for the comments.
>

> Now is probably as good a time as any to share a few thoughts I have
> regarding what seems to be an assumption with respect photo-realism
[Snip]

This is my view as well. It might change if I can develop my texture skills
more :-)

Post a reply to this message

"Mike the Elder" <zer### [at] wyanorg> schreef in bericht 
news:web.463f38ba62a9bf11d44974430@news.povray.org...
>
> Now is probably as good a time as any to share a few thoughts I have
> regarding what seems to be an assumption with respect photo-realism that
> often enters into discussion of ray trace images.
>
I agree with your analysis.

> I note that I have gotten a bit long winded here and promise to avoid 
> making
> a habit of it.
>
Never mind!  Please do!!  :-)

Thomas

Post a reply to this message

Mike the Elder wrote:
> Now is probably as good a time as any to share a few thoughts I have
> regarding what seems to be an assumption with respect photo-realism that
> often enters into discussion of ray trace images.

> This being said, I would encourage anyone who does engage in criticism of
> ray trace art (or in the making of it) to refrain from assuming that the
> highest degree of photo-realism possible is or ought to be every artist’s
> goal.

I know that I am guilty of that sort of assumption a lot. :-)

However, let me argue that case for a moment. Why would you use 
raytracing if you're not after photorealism?

There's hundreds of different 3D rendering packages out there that don't 
use raytracing. They typically use DirectX/OpenGL shaders, and with the 
right hardware can work in realtime, giving you *instant* feedback as 
you're working. Even without hardware acceleration, they are still much 
faster and simpler to work with than actual raytracing.

The main advantage of raytracing over other forms of 3D rendering *is* 
photorealism. It can create realistic shadows, reflections, and global 
illumination.

Now, if you just happen to work better with Pov SDL than with a modeler, 
that's fine. (I *love* SDL.) There's some other toys out there for 
people who want to create images in code (http://processing.org/ comes 
to mind), but there's not many of them and they're not as finished as 
Povray.

But if you're going to build something in, say, Wings3D and then export 
it into POV, I'm going to assume that's because you want Povray to do 
something that Wings' built-in renderer can't do. My guess is that 
something is photorealism, but otherwise I'm curious what it would be.

-- 
William Tracy
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
|a|f|i|s|h|i|o|n|a|d|o|@|g|m|a|i|l|.|c|o|m|
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
|w|t|r|a|c|y|@|c|a|l|p|o|l|y|.|e|d|u|
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
You know you've been raytracing too long when you know the average 
number of hairs on a human head.
Quietly Watching

Post a reply to this message

William Tracy <wtr### [at] calpolyedu> wrote:
....
> However, let me argue that case for a moment. Why would you use
> raytracing if you're not after photorealism?

I, too, love working SDL style.  I particularly enjoy seeing what can be
made from CSG, the whole process of going from idea to mathematical
expression to image. I imagine that it's not too much different than the
enjoyment that some other folks get from building a ship in a bottle.  The
process is at least as important as the product.
....
> The main advantage of raytracing over other forms of 3D rendering *is*
> photorealism. It can create realistic shadows, reflections, and global
> illumination.

The same capabilities that allow for high levels of realism allow for a much
wider selection of creative techniques than the alternative methods.  An
artist can specify more or less of a given optical phenomenon than the
level that would be the most realistic in order to achieve a variety of
effects. To be succinct, the same tools that make possible photo-realism
make possible many other things as well.  Also, for anyone who may be
joining this discussion in the middle, I should like to point out that I
have NEVER argued that photo-realism isn't a valid format for artistic
expression, only against the ASSUMPTION that it is MORE valid than other
forms.

To Tek et al:
Thank you for your concern, but I was not in the least offended, as I fully
realized that all the comments were contributed with the intent of being
helpful and appreciated them as such.  As a matter of fact, I chose to
bring up the issue, which had been on my mind for quite some time, in this
place and time specifically because I saw it as an opportunity to discuss
the matter in the context of a civil discourse with people whom I respect.
I believe that ray tracing is in the process of "coming of age" as a true
art form and that, like any art from, its full potential can best be
realized if ALL of its possibilities are explored.

Best Regards to All,
-Mike C.

Post a reply to this message

William Tracy wrote:

> 
> It can create realistic shadows, reflections, and global 
> illumination.
> 

These are light effects not photo effects.  You do not need a photograph 
to perceive shadows, reflections and global illumination.

Meanwhile, these and other phenomena as recorded by a camera are still 
only a partial "realism"  A photo is just a particular recording of 
reality, a partial slice if you will.

It is quite valid to both reject photolike effects as the "gold 
standard" for realism and at the same time utilize the tools provided in 
a raytracer to create a personal and alternative sense of what's real.

Post a reply to this message

Jim Charter <jrc### [at] msncom> wrote:
> These are light effects not photo effects.  You do not need a photograph
> to perceive shadows, reflections and global illumination.
>
> Meanwhile, these and other phenomena as recorded by a camera are still
> only a partial "realism"  A photo is just a particular recording of
> reality, a partial slice if you will.

Quite. Real 'photorealism' should address the imperfections of the camera
such as barrel distortion, chromatic aberration, over/under exposure, lens
flare, colour bleeding, motion blur, field of view and even the location of
the photographer. I am reminded of Tek's incredible IRTC entry last year
with the fire on the beach.

But there's plenty of amazing things one can do with a raytracer that aren't
possible with a camera. If I could take a picture of it, I don't need to
ray-trace it :-)

Bill

Post a reply to this message

William Tracy <wtr### [at] calpolyedu> wrote:

> However, let me argue that case for a moment. Why would you use
> raytracing if you're not after photorealism?

For me it is laziness. I found PovRay when it was mentioned in the Fractint
documentation. Then I found these newsgroups and the good people here made
me stay. I would probably be better off with a scanline renderer but I like
the company.

Post a reply to this message

General:
I'm guessing topic is a hangup for people, because several recent posts
to p.b.i. are more visually exciting than most of the images here.
Artists who get excited about their subjects *find* a way to make great
looking images. Search the p.b.i. group for non-photoreal images from
Alex Kluchikov or Veijo Vilva for examples of this.



"But which came first?" by David Lewis
A chain-smoking hen contemplates the nature of her existence. The models
and textures are crude (straws look like cigarettes to me), though you
did nail the expression on the chicken's face. The premise does work,
but it's a very tired premise. Maybe I just have no appreciation for the
classics?

"Mild nudity" by Bill Pragnell
I guess the "retro 90s" impression I had of your last entry might very
well have been intentional, because this is a nice looking render. Boring.

"The Passing Away" by Malcolm Findlay
You use some lyrical language in your topic description. This of course
helps get people to pay attention to what you have to say. Pictures are
no different. This topic may resonate with you, but artists have used
the topic ..well... to death. A LOT of lyricism would be necessary to
draw attention to your rendering of such an overused topic.

"yarsocp" by Tek
The most photo-realistic image and best looking marble I recall having
seen from POV-Ray.

"Aging" by William Tracy
The few things in the image are modeled and rendered well. Attractive
and not boring. There is something to be said for a presentation that
doesn't even try to be dramatic. Or, given your topic description, tries
and fails so miserably that the effort isn't even evident (a small
joke). I would suggest searching the p.b.images group for Jim Charter's
shoe and African mask studies.

"First cup" by Mike C
A good amount of details. As others have said, not especially visually
stimulating, but not boring either. The scene definitely does what it
was meant to do.

"Reganomics" by Brian Price
I don't know if it's the scene itself of that it's set in the 80s, but
the (as Tek put it) "naive CG" look works for the image on the right.
For that matter, it doesn't really fail for the image on the left. This
gets your point across, but it's a common political statement and put
very bluntly.

"A Time of Change" by Thomas de Groot
The bad isn't nearly as bad as the good is good, but it's a shame the
good has to share the picture with the less stellar elements. Nice
storytelling and a nice story. You have established identities for the
plane checker and "conformist", even after so few appearances.

"This to that" by Steve Paget
Can't help it. I'm a lot more interested in seeing what's in the photo
of your real workshop than in seeing the render. Nice models, though. A
diamond in the semi-rough? Still waiting for the appearance of your
bizarre ideas like Slotty into the Challenge.

 -Shay

Post a reply to this message

Okay, you guys win. :-)

-- 
William Tracy
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
|a|f|i|s|h|i|o|n|a|d|o|@|g|m|a|i|l|.|c|o|m|
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
|w|t|r|a|c|y|@|c|a|l|p|o|l|y|.|e|d|u|
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
You know you've been raytracing too long when you're quite happy to let 
people think you're on a mission to enlighten the world - in other 
words; you've stopped trying to explain what "global illumination" is.
Alex McLeod a.k.a. Giant Robot Messiah

Post a reply to this message

"Shay" <shay@s.s> wrote in message news:4641e787$1@news.povray.org...


> Can't help it. I'm a lot more interested in seeing what's in the photo
> of your real workshop than in seeing the render.

  Yeah, well, I kind of knew that...   ;)


Nice models, though. A
> diamond in the semi-rough?

   Full-rough, actually. Although, I would have to confess that getting as 
many 'near-complete' octahedrons as this, would be almost impossible. I have 
four rough diamonds with me now, and only one is based on an octahedron, but 
with many flaws along some edges, giving it a more rounder appearance on 
some corners. I tried this in the image, but I didn't try enough.


Still waiting for the appearance of your
> bizarre ideas like Slotty into the Challenge.

    Bizarre idea's?? Moi?? You've seen Slotty then. :)  That was a quick and 
dirty sphere, indeed! I should return to it, it was fun to do.

    BUT, if you meant for me to introduce more challenges in the TC-RTC, 
then yes, this is planned. At the moment, I just want to take it steady and 
see how it goes with what's happening now.

    ~Steve~


>
> -Shay

Post a reply to this message

St. wrote:

>     Bizarre idea's?? Moi?? You've seen Slotty then. :)

You asked in my "...geeks only?" thread in p.b.i. if I had seen your
cgsphere stuff. I took a look and eventually replied, but it was after I
had been away at work, so you may not have seen the reply.


>     BUT, if you meant for me to introduce more challenges in the TC-RTC, 
> then yes, this is planned.

I was talking about crazy images.

As far as the TC-RTC goes, everything looks great. I was past time for
someone interested (and accessible!) to take the reins. Run with it, man!

 -Shay

Post a reply to this message

Something in this discussion just reminded me of a great example of 
non-photoreal CG. Have you guys seen Pocoyo?
http://www.pocoyo.com/

They've got radiosity that looks better than almost anything and yet they 
have no pretense of photorealism. Very cool stuff. Also Stephen Fry doing 
voice over! :)

-- 
Tek
http://evilsuperbrain.com

"William Tracy" <wtr### [at] calpolyedu> wrote in message 
news:46421daf@news.povray.org...
> Okay, you guys win. :-)
>
> -- 
> William Tracy
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> |a|f|i|s|h|i|o|n|a|d|o|@|g|m|a|i|l|.|c|o|m|
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> |w|t|r|a|c|y|@|c|a|l|p|o|l|y|.|e|d|u|
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> You know you've been raytracing too long when you're quite happy to let 
> people think you're on a mission to enlighten the world - in other words; 
> you've stopped trying to explain what "global illumination" is.
> Alex McLeod a.k.a. Giant Robot Messiah

Post a reply to this message

Tek wrote:
> A Type of Typewriter - Shay
> <snip> the characters making up the picture seem to be completely random.

FWIW, this is not the case. Letter selection and orientation are not
random and are important to the appearance of the image.

 -Shay

Post a reply to this message

"Shay" <shay@s.s> schreef in bericht news:4641e787$1@news.povray.org...
> General:
> I'm guessing topic is a hangup for people, because several recent posts
> to p.b.i. are more visually exciting than most of the images here.
> Artists who get excited about their subjects *find* a way to make great
> looking images. Search the p.b.i. group for non-photoreal images from
> Alex Kluchikov or Veijo Vilva for examples of this.
>
This is an interesting idea on which I feel I have to say something. I said 
somewhere in a much earlier thread about the IRTC that competition topics 
can be stimulating to one's own creativity but can also distract you from 
what you really want to pursue. It's a kind of double-edged sword in my 
view. Once you have decided to try your hand at a topic, it becomes 
unrelenting as it will draw out the best (or the worst) in you. If you are a 
good artist, you will overcome the shortcomings with your creative (and 
technical) talents; if you are an average artist (and I consider myself to 
belong to that category) the danger is that you will more often than not be 
dominated or controlled by the boundaries of your talents. This is not a 
pessimistic view, but I consider it of prime importance to discover my own 
(limited) talents and boundaries, and struggle day after day  to drive those 
boundaries back, at the same time trying to stimulate my creativity into new 
unbounded blossoms, as it were. When I look back at my work over the past 
ten years, I am moderately satisfied with the results.
So, yes. More visually exciting images are certainly on show in p.b.i., but 
as I said, they are not restrained by the necessary boundaries of a topic 
but only by the artist's own talents. And real talents there are!! And Alex 
Kluchikov and Veijo Vilva are most certainly amongst them.

>
> "A Time of Change" by Thomas de Groot
> The bad isn't nearly as bad as the good is good, but it's a shame the
> good has to share the picture with the less stellar elements. Nice
> storytelling and a nice story. You have established identities for the
> plane checker and "conformist", even after so few appearances.
>
I think you have said exactly how I feel myself about thes images.

Thomas

Post a reply to this message

Jim Charter wrote:
> 
> In an earlier thread, Shay threw down a challenge
> to himself:
> to produce...
> "an image that is on topic yet still relevant
> outside of the competition."

Looks like results are mixed on the first part of that particular aim. I
didn't think this one would need a topic description.

I look at topic description as a way to share my aims and allow others
to more objectively judge whatever it is I put out there. The aim of
what I presented in this round reaches outside of the topic (more in a
second), but the "Before and After" topic name itself encompasses
*everything* I believe a viewer would need to evaluate the picture.
Topic description is tough to get right anyway. Two months thinking
about a picture; two minutes thinking about a description.

Yes, Thomas, Jim, Tek, and Steve (sorry if I missed any) are correct.
There's mechanical => digital, creator => creation. The first was
intended to be obvious to carry the theme of "before and after" outside
of the RTC.

And now I'll throw the door wide open. I've got the advantage of
spending half of any RTChallenge period away from a computer, so I have
the opportunity to ponder dozens of topics. My first inclination was to
model something: a hybrid of old and new technology or before and after
of some metaphorically extended word like mouse or crane. Might have
turned out well, but wouldn't have embraced my interest in the *only*
one thing that does not change between the before and after planes of
the image I did create.

Stepping back. I read an interview a few years ago where John Lasseter
(Pixar) stated that the character of Dopey Dwarf (specifically his
movements) could not be adequately translated into 3D. This piqued an
interest in characters and concepts that exist only in their respective,
"primitive" technological milieus and also in enduring technologies,
especially simple ones.

As far as enduring, simple technologies, the alphabet is among the
greatest. That so much of human knowledge and expression can be
communicated with so few pen strokes is fascinating to me. Look closely
at my entry, and you will see that the ascii art is restricted to
typeable characters. More noticeable is that the before plane is scaled
so that alphabet characters are visible on some of the keys. The frame
of time visible here is nothing compared to the age of the alphabet, but
is a nice big chunk of time in relation to our lifespans, and a lot has
changed since the age of early typewriters. A lot hasn't.

  -Shay

Post a reply to this message

Hey, it seems a while since the end of the last competition however I
thought I might share my tupence worth on the images seeingas I said I
would. Apologies for the wait but uni eams are happening.

"But which came first" - David Lewis
I like the concept and quite an original take on the topic despite the well
known nature of the question. I love the scene and my only slight critisism
would be the hay which looks slightly strange. However overall I like the
scene.

"*Mild Nudity*" - Bill Pragnell
As with another post I would second the thought about whther mild was the
correct word! However back to the picture ... One technical comment comes
to mind in particular; I love that wall! I will definatly be taking a look
at the macro if/when you let us all see it.

"A type of typewriter" - Shay
I love the original use of povray and in terms of the technical nature of
the picture I was very impressed and certainly dont understand how it was
made. In terms of its relevance to the topic, well there have been a few
ideas posted by others, however I would like to hear how you thought it
conveyed 'before and after'.

"YARSOCP" - Tek
You already have heard a few of my thoughts on this image. I love the
photorealism in the upper picture and am in complete admiration of the the
time and skill put into the image. The only thought I had when I looked at
the picture was, 'Is the lower picture even necessary'. The amazingness of
the upper picture told the whole story for me but ye it is awesome.

"Ageing" - William Tracey
The concept of this image certainly paints a vivid before and after. The
minimilistic approach used is not one that I am usually a fan of however in
this image you have really made the two items work to convey the idea of
before and after.

"1st Cup" - Mike C
The idea is great and it is certainly one that almost everyone can associate
with, coffee drinker or not. As mentioned elsewhere, somehow a bit of double
image or some kind of blurriness to the objects and particularly the table
edge may add to it. I know that has been mentioned elsewhere though and
already discussed.

"Reganomics" - Brian Price
For a first scene it looks very good and I like the concept. In terms of
things to perhaps think about improving; it would be nice to see some more
realistic smoke, at the moment it looks a little solid so perhaps some well
used media would help that. Also the tarmac somehow isnt quite right, it
looks slightly shiny. And also everything is very clean so perhaps a little
less perfection would help the scene on the right and help increase the
contrast. The last of these I must admit I am still figuring out in my
scenes so just takes practice I guess. However great scene and would love
to see more from you in the future.

"A time of change" - Thomas de Groot
A wonderful scene and certainly a wonderful story to go alongside. Things
that particularly stand out is the little boy just hop scotching onto the
first scene as this adds motion to the whole scene very nicely. I also
really like the textures of the walls. One thing that I feel detracts
slightly is the brightness of the posters through the arch in the middle.
To me this draws the eye out of the courtyard. Perhaps dulling these a
little would make them less distracting. In terms of the second image, it
is also truly excellent and a lovely transition. Just one question; where
do the kids play hop scotch now?

"This to that" - ~steve~
I really like the foreground however in some way find the background
workshop really distracting. Ignoring the background the image is really
nice and I like the composition. You personally mentioned a desire to put
in some 'dirt' to make it look less clean and this would indeed help with
the photorealism side of the picture (not that I want to mention the word
photorealism too loudly!). For photorealism it may also be worth
considering perhaps making the tools have a slightly more used look. For
example metal that is used tends to become shinier. Just a few thoughts on
a great image.

Well I hope these comments are in someway useful. Also just to say that I
really enjoyed the images this round as they were very diverse yet all
trying to convey the same idea. Cant wait to see the next round already.

Malcolm

Post a reply to this message

"Shay" <shay@s.s> wrote in message news:464272f4$1@news.povray.org...
> St. wrote:
>
>>     Bizarre idea's?? Moi?? You've seen Slotty then. :)
>
> You asked in my "...geeks only?" thread in p.b.i. if I had seen your
> cgsphere stuff. I took a look and eventually replied, but it was after I
> had been away at work, so you may not have seen the reply.

     I did, I did, damn, I did too see your reply, I remember now. I 
remember wanting to answer, but just didn't. I don't know why, but maybe I 
was feeling down at the time.



>
>
>>     BUT, if you meant for me to introduce more challenges in the TC-RTC,
>> then yes, this is planned.
>
> I was talking about crazy images.

    Oh, *those* CRAZY images! Yeah, there's plenty more to come...  ;)


>
> As far as the TC-RTC goes, everything looks great. I was past time for
> someone interested (and accessible!) to take the reins. Run with it, man!

    I'm running hard, I'm runnin' fast, how long, will my persuers last?

    ~Steve~   ;)




>
> -Shay

Post a reply to this message

Hello friends. Here are my comments for the "before & after" entries.

---------------------------
"But which came first?", by David Lewis.
concept: Funny and original idea to match the topic with the egg-hen
dilemna! I have no answer to the question of which came first, but I have
one for the end of the story: my plate!

artistic: The first thing I saw was the wall and its very realistic aspect,
and then came the hen and the rest of the scene. These elements, mainly the
hen, constrast in realisticness with the background wooden wall, and I was a
bit puzzled by this little mis-harmony. However the scene consists of a few
elements, and illustrates perfectly the concept. More objects would have
overloaded the picture.

technical: As David said in the text file, the main work of this scene was
to model the hen. Not easy! But the purpose here was not to be that much
realistic, but rather ... humoristic. Mission completed! Nice texture for
the hen.
---------------------------


---------------------------
"Mild nudity", by Bill Pragnell.
concept: The purpose of this topic was to answer the question: before and
after what? Most of entrants anwered by an external event: birth (egg-hen),
death (grave), particular time (morning coffee), period of time(street
evolution, courtyard, POV technicity improvement), human intervention
(jewels, courtyard), etc ... Here, it sems something happened in her head,
perhaps helped by the wine. My favorite for concept.

artistic: For me the trick resides in the carafe and the glass! Without
them, the scene would have less 'movement'. The second is the attidute of
the girl. Bill met his aim: flat and pale 'before' picture with an attitude
that says nothing, and much relief and expression in the 'after', because
she lets herself go.

technical: Quite advanced technicity for all aspects of these renders,
especially lighting. I guess Bill spent some time tweaking the girl's
attitudes.
---------------------------


---------------------------
"The Passing Away", by Malcolm Findlay.
concept: Life with the flowers and death with the grave ... and humour with
this poor Ian R. T. Chep. Rest In Peace. Is death the very end of all, or
is it the beginning of something else? Buddhists say that you don't really
die but change bardo, a different state of consciousness. For them, life
(large sense) is a succesion of bardos, and they do not speak about
reincarnation but rather about a continuation of the flow of consciousness,
directed by your choices (karma). IRTC has changed its state and its new
incarnation is a continuation of the spirit that inhabits it.

artistic: The flowers break the symmetry and the relative monotony of the
scene. They 'spring discretely', and their presence is the little light of
the scene.

technical: Reading Malcolm's explanations on the makinf-of, it was not as
simple as it might look at first sight. He used ticks of his own to acheive
what he intended. The grass is OK (based on Gilles' macro). The clouds could
have been made less turbulenced.
---------------------------


---------------------------
"A Type of Typewriter", by Shay.
concept: Originality: Nothing to do with reality. Pure imagination and far
away from traditional raytraced images. Well done! A typewriter drawing a
typewriter with its typed characters ... A conceptual loop that deserves a
special mention.

artistic: Could be a modern painting, not trying to imitate nature at all
and not trying to take advantage of nature's natural art. On the contrary,
it is only art, from scratch.

technical: The making-of would be interresting.
---------------------------


---------------------------
"Yet Another Reflective Sphere on a Checkered Plane", by Tek.
concept: When you start POVing: simple shapes, poor lighting, basic
textures. After xxxx years of practice, and pow(10, yyyy) sleepless nights,
you sometime approach perfection. Here, the equation is: Before & after =
rookie & guru. Tek is becoming a guru.

artistic: Impressive realisticness.

technical: I did not follow much of the discussion thread about this entry.
But some of Tek's images let me speechless. I was quite proud of my povlab,
but I can see it is a pooooor result compared to this ... My favorite for
technical
---------------------------


---------------------------
"Aging", by William Tracy.
concept: Here the equation is: before = young child = funny pink glasses,
after = old person = cane. Though this interpretation could be considered
as somewhat obvious, it was worth a go with the way it was proposed by
William. The result is very satisfactory in all 3 domains (concept,
artistic, technical).

artistic: Such a simple layout! Only 2 objects and that's it! How to say
much with little stuff ...

technical: Good modeling for the glasses, which also show the young age of
the owner. Simple cane with (I guess) a simple texture. William did not
forget the rubber end.
---------------------------


---------------------------
"1st Cup of the Morning", by Michael Chelmecki.
concept: So are many people in the morning: still in the night's fog until
first coffee. In France, we have an advert that uses this idea. The problem
with me: even after a coffee, I am still like the left image ...

artistic: nothing special.

technical: Michael says his scene does not desserve a technical award, it
seems to me not that simple! I wish I could do the same ...
---------------------------


---------------------------
"Reganomics", by Brian Price.
concept: I dont know why, but it is the same very often and everyhere: the
future does not look as good as the good ol'past. I think current time is
(socially and economically) paroxistic, and I am afraid brutal changes will
occur, together with suffering, before we are (at last) aware of real human
values and stand up to take another route ... It is up to us to make a
better world. Raytracing can help us invent more beauty and make it real.

artistic: For me, these 2 images are a reminder: take care of what you
beleive in and follow your line, otherwise some (ugly) other will spoil
your mind, and diversity might be inapropriately ruled.

technical: For a first 'real scene', it is a good success!! Quite a lot of
modeling. Nice cars (how did you do them?).
---------------------------


---------------------------
"A Time of Change (before & after)", 2 images, by Thomas de Groot.
concept: Things change with time, to better or to worse. Is modernity really
better? I like the idea of 'POVware' for the incoming statue of TINA (or
whatever is in the box: Thomas' explanations say that TINA is the girl
talking with the journalist, but when I first saw the image it was obvious
'she' was in the box in order to be at last exposed - cf the guy with
checkered clothing). For me, this entry is the best balance between
concept, art and technical.

artistic: The first image is not aimed at being artistic, but intends to be
a snapshot to the old time, and thus required much work to make things look
old and realistic (the most difficult with synthetic images). The second
image carries a lot of art:
    -) the geometry of the renovated and modernized courtyard with its dome
gives a lot of volume,
    -) it is now some kind of museum where fine art pieces are exposed, I
like the grey statues
    -) expressivenes of the characters

technical: A lot of work on these, especially on the 'before' one! How many
nights, even with reuse? I recognise the use of the ivy generator, and the
attitude of the walking characters. On the 'before', the rooves could have
a layer of dirt, as well as the floor. The wall stucco is good. Good
lighting on the 'after' image and good layout. Thomas is also a POV master
and will be another renouned guru.
---------------------------


---------------------------
"This to That", by Steve Paget.
concept: The result of human work can sometime make a beautiful diamond and
jewels out of rough matter.

artistic: This scene is my favourite for artistic. The textues are a bit too
shiny and too 'clean', and could be reworked to make them look older. It
would enhance the contrast with the gems. For this round, I thought of
reusing my diamond (cut angles after gemologists websites) and enter the
round with a simple scene with only 2 objects and a dark background: the
rough stone and the diamond made out of it. I also had the idea of an old
house between modern buildings

technical: Much details! The fact that the scene is quite populated with
objects helps the purpose. These kind of scenes are my overall favorites,
with realistic landscapes.
---------------------------


     Congrats to entrants

         Bruno

Post a reply to this message

"Shay" <shay@s.s> wrote in message news:46429b01@news.povray.org...
> Tek wrote:
>> A Type of Typewriter - Shay
>> <snip> the characters making up the picture seem to be completely random.
>
> FWIW, this is not the case. Letter selection and orientation are not
> random and are important to the appearance of the image.

So how were the letters chosen? The pattern looked random to me.

-- 
Tek
http://evilsuperbrain.com

Post a reply to this message

Firstly, let me apologise for taking so long to add some comments on the
entries this round.  RL got in the way a bit.

All the entries are very good.  I'm embarassed that my comments sound
negative; please take them in the right spirit - you can tell from my own
effort that I'm no expert.

I thought that one of the difficulties with this topic was showing both
before and after in the same image, and making it clear what the event was
that the two parts were before/after.  It's easy to do a kind of "old &
new", like a powerboat cruising past a canoe, but ideally the image should
make it obvious what the event is that one is before and the other is
after.  Like a candle under a piece of string that's holding up a heavy
weight, before the string burns through and the weight falls.


"Just a splash" - Bill Pragnell
Nice work.  I think the full/empty wineglass makes this a clear
time-sequence, as well as the change from full daylight outside to electric
light indoors.  The walls are great, nicely textured and with uneven edges.

I was left wondering what this building is, made of huge stone blocks yet
with electric lighting, and also why the heroine would sit naked on a
window-ledge while still sober, but an interesting image ought to make the
viewer wonder & think.

On a nit-picking level, the absence of any room indoors seems odd, although
I guess there must be a wall in there, because I can see the light
reflecting off some surface, but more texture to it would make it a bit
more in keeping with the rest of the image.



"The Passing Away" - Malcolm Findlay
Before & after the demise of I.R.T.C., with the "before" part represented by
the photograph, which works as a way of telling the story.  So many internal
references and puns at once that I even missed the big one on first look.
And perhaps we should believe that IRTC is not gone, but has been reborn in
a new body.

The styling of all of the objects in the scene is nicely in harmony.  I
think the image might be improved by making the sky a horizontal plane, so
that the clouds become smaller in the distance (the perspective looks odd),
and possibly adding a fog near the horizon to hold the interest into the
foreground.  And that's just nit-picking.  Nice job.


"A Type of Typewriter" - Shay
Stunning. A truly spectacular image that really sets the viewer to think
deeply.  And a surprising use of POV in a way that isn't 3D CSG as we
recognise it.  I guess you could also call it a fractal image, in the sense
that it is self-similar (a bunch of letters) at more than one scale.  Great
choice of bold, vibrant, contrasting colours too.

And the theme?  I didn't get it.  I didn't see how this conveys the state of
things before & after any event or change.  Maybe I've just missed the
point.


"Yet Another Reflective Sphere on a Checkered Plane" - Tekno Frannansa
As someone who reads top-to-bottom, I see that "before" you had this photo
of a ball bearing on a chess-board, and "after" you drew a cartoon of it
:-)  But I've read the text file and know that's not what you meant.  I'm
just not sure that the image tells the story clearly without the supporting
text.

The "photo" really is very good indeed.  I can't think how to suggest
improving it.  Oh wait - there's no reflection of the photographer on the
sphere!  It's so realistic that I can worry about things like that :-)


"Aging" - William Tracy
Very simple, and effective for it.  Can't fault the technical setup or
presentation for such a straightforward pairing.

Like another of the comments here, I mistook the glasses for Dame Edna
Everage, which weakened the initial impact - perhaps a pair of roller
skates would make a better kid's alternative to the walking stick?  or one
of those carts with alphabet bricks in them?


"1st Cup of the Morning" - Michael Chelmecki
I love the contrast of before & after that first cup.  All the fog is
transferred from inside my head to filling the kitchen.  This is a great
interpretation of the subject.

All the objects do their job well.  The "after" pic is not quite
photographic (is that the lighting?) but this is effectiely a cartoon, so
that's not a fair criticism.


"Reganomics" - Brian A. Price
I like the sharp division down the middle of what is clearly a single image
as a way of showing both ends of the story.  The picture could read as "the
other side of the street", except that the change in the sky shows that the
two sides are separated by something more.

I don't think the image itself tells the story of what the event is, and you
have to look at the text to understand what caused the change in the
neighbourhood.

The models are fine.  The textures make them look a bit flat - the lighting
is low, so maybe some normal mapping would add shadows and make them look
less perfectly flat.


"A Time of Change" - Thomas de Groot
Great people, lovely models (and such a lot of them), and very impressive
images.  There's so much going on in this pair.  I liked the crate full of
dangerous POVWare :-)

The lighting strikes me as too flat.  There's a lot of ambient light in the
shadows, like the guy shouting on the left of the gallery standing in
shadow, but still very visible.

I think it's also really interesting to look at these two the other way
round.  Once there was an art gallery, and now the square is derelict. In a
way, it's just as clear a story (although a tale of bad news, rather than
good).



"This to That" - Steve Paget
The story is very clear, a change from raw materials to a finished piece of
work.   I like that.  The models are very good.  As you say, the textures
make them all look brand new, but I'm sure you take great care of your
tools :-)

The background is a bit of a distraction.  The more I look at it, the more
plausible the perspective looks, but it's just too bright and interesting
to fade out and leave my attention on the foreground alone.


Overall, a great set of images.  I hope there's as much interest in future
rounds.

Post a reply to this message

Tek wrote:

> So how were the letters chosen? The pattern looked random to me.

I don't believe in technically deconstructing images. However, I will
give one small, verifiable example of determination. My picture had to
be compressed 50% to make the size limit, but you can still look and see
that the colors are not mixed with any conventional CG method (add,
subtract, multiply, divide, average), but with my own custom formula.
You may consider the difference subtle (like the letter selection), but
it is provably there without any revealing explanations or comparison
renders.

 -Shay

Post a reply to this message

Well okay but I guess I have a philosophical question:
If I can't see these things when I look at it is that extra effort adding to 
the picture?

Or is it made for a smaller audience of people who can detect these 
subtleties?

Or am I completely missing the point?

-- 
Tek
http://evilsuperbrain.com


"Shay" <shay@s.s> wrote in message news:46472940@news.povray.org...
> Tek wrote:
>
>> So how were the letters chosen? The pattern looked random to me.
>
> I don't believe in technically deconstructing images. However, I will
> give one small, verifiable example of determination. My picture had to
> be compressed 50% to make the size limit, but you can still look and see
> that the colors are not mixed with any conventional CG method (add,
> subtract, multiply, divide, average), but with my own custom formula.
> You may consider the difference subtle (like the letter selection), but
> it is provably there without any revealing explanations or comparison
> renders.
>
> -Shay

Post a reply to this message

Shay wrote:
> I don't believe in technically deconstructing images.

Actually, isn't that sort of the point of the IRTC? To see what other 
people are doing, and learn how they did it?

-- 
William Tracy
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
|a|f|i|s|h|i|o|n|a|d|o|@|g|m|a|i|l|.|c|o|m|
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
|w|t|r|a|c|y|@|c|a|l|p|o|l|y|.|e|d|u|
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
You know you've been raytracing too long when you think it's a failing 
of the universe that the large software companies like Corel or Fractal 
Design do NOT export to POV primitives.
George Erhard

Post a reply to this message

Tek wrote:
> Well okay but I guess I have a philosophical question:
> If I can't see these things when I look at it is that extra
> effort adding to the picture?

You *can* see those things, but you'll have to take my word for it. I
don't mean subconsciously, either. A crappy-looking comparison render
render *with* randomly selected letters would plainly show the
difference letter selection makes. Color blending makes as large a
difference. A good percentage of commenters (even those who took nothing
thematically from the image) found the image aesthetically attractive.

IMO, deconstructing my image with comparison renders or code/preudocode
samples would take away from it. However effective the image may or may
not be, I am intent of presenting it at face value.

 -Shay

Post a reply to this message