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From: Stephen
Subject: TC-RTC PovRay 0, Other 3
Date: 3 Jul 2011 07:01:51
Message: <4e104c1f$1@news.povray.org>
A dismal round where a homemade java renderer took the top three places 
out of five entries. (One Pover missed the deadline for voting)
This rendering challenge was started by the late Steve Paget (St) when 
the IRTC went belly up. It is in danger of going the same way due to 
lack of interest.


is 24:00 (GMT) 16th of August 2011. If the topic does not suit you then 
you could register at the site and vote for the next topic.

-- 
Regards
     Stephen


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From: TawnyOwl
Subject: Re: TC-RTC PovRay 0, Other 3
Date: 15 Jul 2011 17:10:00
Message: <web.4e20abc487f978c626c358940@news.povray.org>
Stephen <mcavoys_at@aoldotcom> wrote:
> A dismal round where a homemade java renderer took the top three places
> out of five entries. (One Pover missed the deadline for voting)
> This rendering challenge was started by the late Steve Paget (St) when
> the IRTC went belly up. It is in danger of going the same way due to
> lack of interest.


> is 24:00 (GMT) 16th of August 2011. If the topic does not suit you then
> you could register at the site and vote for the next topic.
>
> --
> Regards
>      Stephen

Hi Stephen,

ok. there where only a few entries and Normand wons it all. But can we blame him
for using his own (possibly handcrafted - as I understand him from earlier
contributions) renderer? I Don't think so. Possibly one can limited the number
of entries to one per person, but what will be yield? We would only limit
Normand to one entry and gain no more from others. And you cannot call the work
from Normand bad. I don't like all of his work, but the most of it is really
good and beyond some other winners of the IRTC, if we skip the top artists of
the IRTC like Jaime Vives Piqueres or Gilles Tran. So please don't blame Normand
only because he uses another renderer. I think that we have to accept, that we
are only a very few hobbiest now, and that the professional efforts, we have
seen in the 1990ies in the irtc are gone to the industry directly or via
raph.com. If you like to answer me in private my email is taw### [at] webde
(beware of the underscore).

Regards,
Michael


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From: Stephen
Subject: Re: TC-RTC PovRay 0, Other 3
Date: 15 Jul 2011 20:33:31
Message: <4e20dc5b$1@news.povray.org>
On 15/07/2011 10:06 PM, TawnyOwl wrote:
> Hi Stephen,
>
> ok. there where only a few entries and Normand wons it all. But can we blame him
> for using his own (possibly handcrafted - as I understand him from earlier
> contributions) renderer? I Don't think so.

Michael, I did not meant to *blame* Normand. I don't see how that could 
possibly be done. He is a stalwart of the TC-RTC.

I am just disappointed that there are so few entries from the PovRay 
community, that is all. The site was set up in response to the outcry 
when the IRTC went down. It costs money (not a lot) to run and there is 
the time and effort of the administrators, mostly Thomas. Well actually 
it is Thomas who effectively does it all.
I'm just wondering if it is worth keeping it going.
if you have any ideas please let us know.

-- 
Regards
     Stephen


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From: Thomas de Groot
Subject: Re: TC-RTC PovRay 0, Other 3
Date: 16 Jul 2011 03:25:59
Message: <4e213d07$1@news.povray.org>
On 16-7-2011 2:33, Stephen wrote:
> On 15/07/2011 10:06 PM, TawnyOwl wrote:
>> Hi Stephen,
>>
>> ok. there where only a few entries and Normand wons it all. But can we
>> blame him
>> for using his own (possibly handcrafted - as I understand him from
>> earlier
>> contributions) renderer? I Don't think so.
>
> Michael, I did not meant to *blame* Normand. I don't see how that could
> possibly be done. He is a stalwart of the TC-RTC.
>
> I am just disappointed that there are so few entries from the PovRay
> community, that is all. The site was set up in response to the outcry
> when the IRTC went down. It costs money (not a lot) to run and there is
> the time and effort of the administrators, mostly Thomas. Well actually
> it is Thomas who effectively does it all.
> I'm just wondering if it is worth keeping it going.
> if you have any ideas please let us know.
>

I agree with Stephen that the response from the community is very 
disappointing especially after the large discussion we had here 
resulting in the launching of the TC-RTC by Steve Paget. I suspect there 
are a couple of reasons for this, one of them being possibly the 
financial crisis which might have pointed priorities towards more 
mundane things. Nobody to blame for that, except for the financial 
rogues of course.

I have been too busy creating images for the TC-RTC to really pay 
attention to the *new* IRTC while it was active, but neither did it 
attract as much participants as the *old* IRTC in its best days, if I am 
correct. So, the same processes may have been at work there too.

And maybe people are tired of competitions? ;-)  I am not that keen of 
them myself but I see them as challenges to create something interesting 
and/or to stimulate my imagination in ways I would not have followed 
normally. And let's be frank, we may not be the top of artistic quality 
- whatever that may be in our world by the way - but I am convinced that 
we have produced some very interesting and creative quality work over 
the years. Maybe some people are snobbing us, but we have enough reason 
to be proud of our hobbyist production.

Thomas


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From: Christian Froeschlin
Subject: Re: TC-RTC PovRay 0, Other 3
Date: 16 Jul 2011 15:11:00
Message: <4e21e244@news.povray.org>
Stephen wrote:

> I'm just wondering if it is worth keeping it going.

I think it is, and I have now finally registered even
though I will likely not enter this round. Thank you for
your efforts in keeping this up.

> if you have any ideas please let us know.

The marketing could be improved ... for those that
haven't yet been actively involved with TC-RTC its easy
to forget its even there. I would suggest posting each
new topic announcement here (including a direct link
to the images from the current round, that should then
be in voting phase if I understand the timing).

This will help attract people in two ways:

1. If someone reacts positively to the topic he may join
2. Most people reading this group will be interested to
    have at least a quick look at the final renders of a
    3d render challenge and will visit, possibly vote.

Even though the name of this newsgroup is irtc I think
such posts would not be off-topic since you are basically
the only working IRTC analogue at the moment.

Of course, the tone of the post should be neutrally
informative, not complaining or accusing.

Furthermore, the jumble of items on the main TC-RTC page
("Home") could be cleaned up a bit so as to not put off
passers-by (no offence intended). I'm not a web designer
but feel free to contact me for some suggestions ;)


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From: Thomas de Groot
Subject: Re: TC-RTC PovRay 0, Other 3
Date: 17 Jul 2011 02:56:27
Message: <4e22879b$1@news.povray.org>
On 16-7-2011 21:10, Christian Froeschlin wrote:
> Stephen wrote:
>
>> I'm just wondering if it is worth keeping it going.
>
> I think it is, and I have now finally registered even
> though I will likely not enter this round. Thank you for
> your efforts in keeping this up.

Thank you :-)

>
>> if you have any ideas please let us know.
>
> The marketing could be improved ... for those that
> haven't yet been actively involved with TC-RTC its easy
> to forget its even there. I would suggest posting each
> new topic announcement here (including a direct link
> to the images from the current round, that should then
> be in voting phase if I understand the timing).

Yes, you are right. We wrongly assume - or so do I - that this community 
knows about the TC-RTC. Of course this is not true and you are right to 
point that out. I have taken the habit of sending out a newsletter to 
members when voting and a new topic is announced. I shall do that here 
too in the future.

>
> This will help attract people in two ways:
>
> 1. If someone reacts positively to the topic he may join

Indeed.

> 2. Most people reading this group will be interested to
> have at least a quick look at the final renders of a
> 3d render challenge and will visit, possibly vote.

Yes.

>
> Even though the name of this newsgroup is irtc I think
> such posts would not be off-topic since you are basically
> the only working IRTC analogue at the moment.

Yes, I think that would be ok. There is no direct need to start a 
separate newsgroup as far as I can see.

>
> Of course, the tone of the post should be neutrally
> informative, not complaining or accusing.

<grin> or offensive ("hey you dudes! Move your fat @$$!")  ;-)

>
> Furthermore, the jumble of items on the main TC-RTC page
> ("Home") could be cleaned up a bit so as to not put off
> passers-by (no offence intended). I'm not a web designer
> but feel free to contact me for some suggestions ;)

Oh yes. I totally agree. Some time ago, Colin (the webmaster) asked 
Stephen and me about ways to improve the site. I sent him a list of 
suggestions, especially about the homepage which is certainly a jumble. 
Nothing has been done yet, but I shall ask him about it. Thanks for 
reminding us.

Thomas


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From: Stephen
Subject: Re: TC-RTC PovRay 0, Other 3
Date: 17 Jul 2011 20:55:49
Message: <4e238495$1@news.povray.org>
I agree with Thomas's comments and thanks for the good ideas.

On 17/07/2011 7:56 AM, Thomas de Groot wrote:
>> Furthermore, the jumble of items on the main TC-RTC page
>> ("Home") could be cleaned up a bit so as to not put off
>> passers-by (no offence intended). I'm not a web designer
>> but feel free to contact me for some suggestions ;)
>
> Oh yes. I totally agree. Some time ago, Colin (the webmaster) asked
> Stephen and me about ways to improve the site. I sent him a list of
> suggestions, especially about the homepage which is certainly a jumble.
> Nothing has been done yet, but I shall ask him about it. Thanks for
> reminding us.

Yes Colin did say that and any ideas will be welcome. I for one am 
bereft of them.
-- 
Regards
     Stephen


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From: TawnyOwl
Subject: Re: TC-RTC PovRay 0, Other 3
Date: 22 Jul 2011 15:45:01
Message: <web.4e29d2aa87f978c683f94e6b0@news.povray.org>
Hi to the crowd,

maybe I expressed myself a little bit badly or I misunderstand Stephen a bit,
but in the end I agree to all the points stated here in the last days. If the
financial crisis plays a significant role, I cannot judge. I really think, that
in the high times of the irtc with more than 200 entries per round a lot of them
was motivated by gaining points for jobs in the industry. But may be I'm wrong.
The financial crisis may be an other reason. May be both reasons played a part.
In the revitalized irtc in 2009 and 2010 there were only few contributors too,
some 10 I remember. At the last abandoned competition of the irtc it was only 6
I'm sure. To promote the TC-RTC here is a very good idea certainly. I'm not sure
whether the TC-RTC-website needs much improvements or not. The one or other
explanation about the topics or so would help certainly but I will not mangle
myself with questions of style.

I really think that you should not surrender with the TC-RTC and looking at my
WIP at this very moment I think you gain a new contributor this round, maybe
with a very headstrong interpretation of the topic.

Regards,
Michael


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From: TawnyOwl
Subject: Re: TC-RTC PovRay 0, Other 3
Date: 22 Jul 2011 15:55:01
Message: <web.4e29d58987f978c683f94e6b0@news.povray.org>
I've forgot to say: I render with PovRay only. (But use other programs, like
Wings in the upcoming picture and Poser or DAZ in the future as auxiliaries).

Regards,
Michael


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From: Thomas de Groot
Subject: Re: TC-RTC PovRay 0, Other 3
Date: 23 Jul 2011 03:28:08
Message: <4e2a7808@news.povray.org>
On 22-7-2011 21:42, TawnyOwl wrote:
> Hi to the crowd,
>
> maybe I expressed myself a little bit badly or I misunderstand Stephen a bit,
> but in the end I agree to all the points stated here in the last days. If the
> financial crisis plays a significant role, I cannot judge. I really think, that
> in the high times of the irtc with more than 200 entries per round a lot of them
> was motivated by gaining points for jobs in the industry. But may be I'm wrong.
> The financial crisis may be an other reason. May be both reasons played a part.
> In the revitalized irtc in 2009 and 2010 there were only few contributors too,
> some 10 I remember. At the last abandoned competition of the irtc it was only 6
> I'm sure. To promote the TC-RTC here is a very good idea certainly. I'm not sure
> whether the TC-RTC-website needs much improvements or not. The one or other
> explanation about the topics or so would help certainly but I will not mangle
> myself with questions of style.

Yes, there seems to be a trend there. We shall never know the real 
reasons for that evolution I am afraid. Best we can do is to try to keep 
the TC-RTC as visible - and interesting - as possible.

>
> I really think that you should not surrender with the TC-RTC and looking at my
> WIP at this very moment I think you gain a new contributor this round, maybe
> with a very headstrong interpretation of the topic.

Michael, that is good news. Thank you for joining our little community.

Thomas


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