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From: Fabien
Subject: Re: Bravo
Date: 5 Mar 2011 04:04:26
Message: <4d71fc9a$1@news.povray.org>

> Fabien<fab### [at] gmailcom>  wrote:
>
>> The "new" IRTC literally sucked, quality-wise, (the images,
>> not the site), compared to what was produced some years
>> ago.
>
> While you may have some points worth arguing regarding maintaining of the IRTC
> site, I think it's a bit harsh to lay such criticism on the images in the newer
> contest site (I assume you refer to the TINA CheP).

I was referring to www.irtc.org. For the rest, see my reply to
Robert McGregor.

> Would you criticize a 5 year old about his crude drawing of a person and tell
> him it sucks?  Perhaps one day that 5 year old will be Van Gogh, having learned
> and developed far beyond that initial crude drawing.

I'm not bashing a 5-year old future Van Gogh, I'm talking about a
talented 10-years old which stops drawing for three years, and is
less talented at 13 than (s)he was at 10.

Fabien.


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From: Fabien
Subject: Re: Bravo
Date: 5 Mar 2011 05:15:32
Message: <4d720d44$1@news.povray.org>
Le 3/03/2011 22:55, Jim Henderson a écrit :
> On Thu, 03 Mar 2011 08:12:41 +0100, Fabien wrote:
>
>> How did you guys MANAGE to get to this situation ?
>
> Wow, what a troll you are.  Something maintained by members of the
> community for the community and it doesn't meet your standards.

No, it doesn't meet my standard of expecting a very simple website
to be up and running continuously, neither my standard of either
coping with a problem or asking for help. That's precisely what
a community is about, and the current www.irtc.org homepage is quite
anti-community, IMO.

About who I am, I am the author of this :
http://www.povcomp.com/entries/191.php

...I've spent countless hours many years ago helping people,
making objects, macros, demo scenes, testing new stuff. I am
the author of the default demo scene which can be run afer
POV-Ray's installation, the one with the bicuits and tea cup
(and I'm not glad that it's still there these days, after
ten years it looks pretty dated, there are enough people out
here that could make something more fresh and technically advanced)

> Instead of being a jackass about it, how about offering to pitch in and
> help rather than just heap criticism after criticism on the site?

This was not meant to offer help, but really to express how much
I'm pissed off by what's happening.

> You say "any rookie using PHP could do it in two days, including me" but
> I sure as hell didn't see you step up and offer it.  Instead you decided
> to act like a jerk and criticise.

Watch this space.

Fabien.


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From: Fabien
Subject: Re: Bravo
Date: 5 Mar 2011 08:26:23
Message: <4d7239ff$1@news.povray.org>

>
> Apparently you didn't even bother to inform yourself properly about the
> organizational structures around POV-Ray and the IRTC.

See my reply to Jim Henderson to see how much I've been implied into this.

> I'm not sure about the roots of the IRTC, but the recent "revival" was
> /not/ run by the organization that owns the software name "POV-Ray" - it
> was run by an individual from the community, for the community; all the
> "POV-Ray organization" had to do with it was that it supported the
> project with server space and communication channels (there is a reason,
> for instance, that the IRTC newsgroups are not named "povray.*", but
> "irtc.*").

Whoever (anonymous, so far) wrote the current www.irtc.org homepage,
related or not to the current POV-Ray Team, is adopting the same
irritating attitude that I describe (mainly : the piping is broken,
we won't call a plumber, and we keep the keys of the house).

And I'm linking both because I've seen the same attitude in POV-Ray
making.

> So what you see is indeed /not/ the result of a cathedral approach at
> all, but to the contrary that of a bazaar: A shop has closed down
> because it didn't have enough customers, not enough employees, the wrong
> quality of goods, or whatever - it was /not/ a decision of some high
> priest to discontinue it, but of the person who had been running the shop.

The message on the homepage says it's a "software problem", nothing
to do with closing voluntarily, whatever the reason ! And, in your
hypothesis, there's a solution : HAND THE KEYS.

> Your problem is actually that you apparently /want/ a cathedral, where
> you can just go to and receive something, and if you don't get what you
> need you can blame it on the priests. A bazaar isn't that easy for the
> customers: They have to go round and ask where they can get things; they
> may have to invest something to get them; and some things may not be for
> offer even when they're badly needed. And last not least there's no
> single person or organization you can blame when something doesn't run
> smoothly.

At some point, a single person wrote that "broken, don't care" homepage.
It's that person I'm yelling at, asking that something is done, or
handled to other volunteers !

Fabien.


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From: Fabien
Subject: Re: Bravo
Date: 5 Mar 2011 08:28:47
Message: <4d723a8f$1@news.povray.org>

> Fabien wrote:
>
>  > How did you guys MANAGE to get to this situation ?
>
> I realize you've probably built up some frustration
> until it exploded, but it's usually not good idea to post
> publicly in the heat of the moment.
>
>> After the "admins are gone, pschiiiit", now it's
>> a "software issue", which you don't EVEN consider
>> to fix.
>
> I can somewhat relate to this sentiment. It's a bit
> strange to spend a year rebuilding this and engaging
> the community in discussion and testing and then take
> it down with such a vague reason and no perspective.
> I'd go so far as to say it is a bit disrespectful to
> a community that I'm sure would be supportive and
> constructive whatever the actual problem is.

You are more diplomatic than I, but, yes, that's the point.

Fabien.


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From: Robert McGregor
Subject: Re: Bravo
Date: 5 Mar 2011 10:15:01
Message: <web.4d7252ea27614c3bd39341350@news.povray.org>
Fabien <fab### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> At some point, a single person wrote that "broken, don't care" homepage.
> It's that person I'm yelling at, asking that something is done, or
> handled to other volunteers !
>
> Fabien.

Well, I'm not sure who wrote the message on that home page, but Chris Cason did
say he'd try and sort it all out after the 3.7 release, so there's still hope:

http://news.povray.org/4d39775c@news.povray.org

And that means Chris could get Edouard set up with whatever he needs too :)
Progress!

Cheers,
Rob

-------------------------------------------------
www.McGregorFineArt.com


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From: Fabien
Subject: Re: Bravo
Date: 5 Mar 2011 13:29:57
Message: <4d728125@news.povray.org>

> Fabien<fab### [at] gmailcom>  wrote:
>
>> How did you guys MANAGE to get to this situation ?
>>
>> Back to the IRTC, the choice of an obscure Smalltalk-based*
>> framework, which only ten people in the world are
>> familiar with, was a recipe for disaster.
>
> I'd be happy to volunteer to fix it. I know Smalltalk, and have used Seaside a
> bit.
>
> Edouard.
>
>

Now that David Buck has expressed that he would let someone try to
fix the stuff, can you contact him and see what you can do ?

Fabien.


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From: Jim Henderson
Subject: Re: Bravo
Date: 6 Mar 2011 01:21:36
Message: <4d7327f0@news.povray.org>
On Sat, 05 Mar 2011 11:15:32 +0100, Fabien wrote:

> No, it doesn't meet my standard of expecting a very simple website to be
> up and running continuously, neither my standard of either coping with a
> problem or asking for help. That's precisely what a community is about,
> and the current www.irtc.org homepage is quite anti-community, IMO.

As is coming in and intentionally being rude to the community instead of 
being polite and asking "so what's going on here and how can I help make 
things better?"

That would have been a much more constructive way to get things going 
again.

Christian did a much better job of expressing the exact same sentiment.  
You'll notice that nobody is criticizing him for agreeing with you.

I honestly don't particularly care at this point about who you are or 
what you have contributed up until this point.  You lost all credibility 
when you started attacking those who had volunteered their time to fix 
things and then had other life commitments come up.

Jim


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From: clipka
Subject: Re: Bravo
Date: 7 Mar 2011 01:09:49
Message: <4d7476ad$1@news.povray.org>
Am 05.03.2011 14:26, schrieb Fabien:

> Whoever (anonymous, so far) wrote the current www.irtc.org homepage,
> related or not to the current POV-Ray Team, is adopting the same
> irritating attitude that I describe (mainly : the piping is broken,
> we won't call a plumber, and we keep the keys of the house).
>
> And I'm linking both because I've seen the same attitude in POV-Ray
> making.

*HELLO?!?!*

You're writing to someone who is actively involved in this "POV-Ray 
making", and I will *not* let your statemend stand unchallenged.

I started using POV-Ray in September 2008 (after having toyed around 
with it some decade earlier). Back then, I only had a single-core 
machine, and 3.6 and MegaPOV were fine for my purposes. Some 2 months 
later though, I bought a quad-core system to set aside just for 
rendering - initially with the intention of running multiple instances 
of MegaPOV in parallel - and found that POV-Ray 3.7 would promise more 
speed than 3.6, if only it would run radiosity on multiple cores. It 
didn't, and the few development status reports that trickled in 
indicated that development was stalling, and radiosity was still way 
down on the dev team's priority list.

So in december, I wrote this newsgroup post in povray.beta-test:

http://news.povray.org/povray.beta-test/thread/%3Cweb.494c5db633949b3be71a54f80%40news.povray.org%3E/?ttop=358039&toff=350

To make a long story short: I was involved in the making of POV-Ray in 
no time flat, and got free hand in designing a way to make radiosity 
work with SMP (even including some architectural change to the rest of 
the code) and rid it of several design uglies. Since then, I went on to 
implement subsurface scattering (an idea that Chris Cason came up with), 
implemented a bunch of smaller features that I wanted to see in POV-Ray, 
gave gamma issues a thorough addressing because /I/ felt it important, 
and - of that I do take particular pride, and will not suffer having you 
slander those efforts - addressed virtually any reported bug that I felt 
capable of addressing.

 From what I have experienced since I first volunteered to get my hands 
dirty, there is no secrecy about POV-Ray; no closed circle of ivory 
tower developers; there is no resentment to accept help - to the 
contrary. There is just too much to do to waste time and energy on 
begging for help, because experience is that the resonance to such 
requests is pretty scant. So instead of suffering the frustration to be 
expected (or maybe even start whining and complaining, like /certain/ 
people do prefer instead of being constructive), the people involved 
just continue being as productive as they possibly can, and as their 
day-time jobs & families allow.


If you'd ask Le Forgeron, I'm pretty sure he'd have a similar story to 
tell. He, too, recently decided to get his hands dirty and become involved.


> The message on the homepage says it's a "software problem", nothing
> to do with closing voluntarily, whatever the reason ! And, in your
> hypothesis, there's a solution : HAND THE KEYS.

Yes. But the productive first step on your behalf should have been to 
*ask* for the keys yourself, instead of ranting that the keys hadn't 
been handed to anyone else. To whom, I ask you, should they have been 
given? Who stepped forward and volunteered to continue that business?

As for being a software problem vs. closing voluntarily, the one doesn't 
exclude the other: It probably is a software problem so severe that the 
maintainer of the site sees himself unable to fix it given his limited 
time & energy.

(Another note here: the current maintainer stepped up after a long 
desperate search for someone to revive the IRTC; there was no reason for 
him to assume that there would be anyone around just waiting to lend a 
hand or even take over the business)

> At some point, a single person wrote that "broken, don't care" homepage.
> It's that person I'm yelling at, asking that something is done, or
> handled to other volunteers !

Still you're also ranting about "POV-Ray" in general, and about the 
"attitude in POV-Ray making". It is *that* which I will not suffer.

And, to re-iterate: Instead of just building up steam and then 
exploding, you should have addressed that person with a suggestion to 
/help/ first.

Now, with that attitude of yours, I wonder whether that person would 
still be willing to hand the keys to /you/ - or if he did, whether any 
of his "customers" would be willing to deal with you. You managed to 
offend the current IRTC "owner", his "customers", the people providing 
the market infrastructure, and virtually anyone on the marketplace, in 
just a single posting. Bravo.

I guess it would be prudent for you to step down from your box at 
speakers' corner, and mumble a humble "sorry" to the offended crowd, 
before they stone you to death with ripe tomatoes and rotten eggs (be 
warned - that's a very long, humiliating way of dying). But that choice 
is up to you.


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From: Bruno Cabasson
Subject: Re: Bravo
Date: 7 Mar 2011 04:05:00
Message: <web.4d749f7327614c3b4aa45fdf0@news.povray.org>
Wow, the minds are pretty hot and the pot is boiling!!

I am a bit sorry to see that something made by passionate, talented and
benevolent people, leads to a consumer's attitude.

If we support and help, instead of having this consumer's attitude, those people
are likely to bring things to a new golden age.

Bruno.


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From: W0RLDBUILDER
Subject: Re: Bravo
Date: 4 Jun 2011 22:10:01
Message: <web.4deae45427614c3bdb31ab8b0@news.povray.org>
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Troll detected!


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