Not sure, but I have been working on a theme from a copyrighted material...
I'll just have to find some adress to the people...


//Spider

Nieminen Mika wrote:
> 
> Spider <spi### [at] bahnhofse> wrote:
> : Now, according to other posts here, If I decide to use a theme based on or
including
> : copyrighted material, I have to get permission from the author.
> 
>   Does this also mean that if I made an image about povray, I have to ask
> for permission to the povteam?-)
> 
> --
> main(i){char*_="BdsyFBThhHFBThhHFRz]NFTITQF|DJIFHQhhF";while(i=
> *_++)for(;i>1;printf("%s",i-70?i&1?"[]":" ":(i=0,"\n")),i/=2);} /*- Warp. -*/

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Clearly Bill is wrong.  But the question is highly nontrivial.
Consider a photograph -- must I seek permission of all those
who have proprietary material captured in the image?  Is
a raytracing different than a photograph?

It isn't at all obvious to me there is a problem with using
commercial logos in tracings.  I would say if a photograph
of the same scene is okay, the tracing should be okay.  Would a photograph
of a coke can be permissible?

Dan

Ron Parker wrote:
> Bill Fleming wrote me back:
> 
> +----------------
> | No. You only need permission if you plan to sell the work and then it's
> | onle necessary if the object isthe main focus of the work. If the
> | battery is a background element like the image in the article it's no
> | problem. The robot is the main focus. He has a familiar Swiss Army knife
> | for a hand but that again isn't a problem since it's only a part of him.
> +----------------
> 
> I'm not sure whether I believe this or not, especially since it's
> one of the top ten myths, but I would have thought he'd done his
> research; after all, he's used the image in question for profit at
> least three times, by my count.

-- 
http://www.flash.net/~djconnel/

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Dan Connelly wrote:
> 
> Clearly Bill is wrong.  But the question is highly nontrivial.
> Consider a photograph -- must I seek permission of all those
> who have proprietary material captured in the image?  Is
> a raytracing different than a photograph?
> 
> It isn't at all obvious to me there is a problem with using
> commercial logos in tracings.  I would say if a photograph
> of the same scene is okay, the tracing should be okay.  Would a photograph
> of a coke can be permissible?
> 
> Dan

I think the laws of protection are for cicumstances where
profitability are concerned. In the case of the i.r.t.c
where the entrant has the oppertunity to win a prize
with real world value by using trademarked material is
in fact in violation of the intent of the law. To use such
material for ones own use is probably permissable.

I mentioned the case of Disney and the day care center but
there is another even more valid example of using such materials
without permission. That would be the movie industry. In every
scene of a movie where tradmarked goods are shown on screen
there is an extremely large staff of people envolved with
making sure permission is granted by the owner of the materials
in question.

-- 
Ken Tyler

tyl### [at] pacbellnet

Post a reply to this message

Ken wrote:
> 
> Dan Connelly wrote:
> >
> > Clearly Bill is wrong.  But the question is highly nontrivial.
> > Consider a photograph -- must I seek permission of all those
> > who have proprietary material captured in the image?  Is
> > a raytracing different than a photograph?
> >
> > It isn't at all obvious to me there is a problem with using
> > commercial logos in tracings.  I would say if a photograph
> > of the same scene is okay, the tracing should be okay.  Would a photograph
> > of a coke can be permissible?

A photo e.g. of a city street where some stores have ads in the window is
generally ok.  "Incidental uses" like that are normally not considered
infringing.  A photo of just a Coke can, unless, perhaps you are Andy Warhol and
can make a first amendment case as artistic expression, may be potential
trouble.  Remember, don't confuse copyright law and trademark law.  The rules
are quite different.  Incidentally, there have been trademark cases in which
someone was enjoined from using *his own name* because it could damage the value
of a trademarked name or falsely imply endorsement by the trademark holder.  I
seem to remember such a case involving an establishment called "Frank Sinatra's
Restaurant", although that was the actual given name of the proprietor.
 
> I think the laws of protection are for cicumstances where
> profitability are concerned. In the case of the i.r.t.c
> where the entrant has the oppertunity to win a prize
> with real world value by using trademarked material is
> in fact in violation of the intent of the law. To use such
> material for ones own use is probably permissable.

Sorry.  Myth number one.  Profitablity or profitable intent are irrelevant to
whether infringement occurs.  Consider the recent case of the man named "Koch"
who got tired of having it pronounced "kahtch" rather than "koke".  He tried to
change it to "Coke-is-it" so people would pronounce it correctly, and a certain
cola company intervened.  Although he had no financial intent whatsoever in the
change, they felt (and the law was on their side) that he could thereby damage
their trademark.  (Actual or intended) profit could matter in determining the
amount of actual damages in a civil suit.  But damages can occur regardless. 
And there are still statutory damages if a copyright is registered (which can be
done after the fact).
 
> I mentioned the case of Disney and the day care center but
> there is another even more valid example of using such materials
> without permission. That would be the movie industry. In every
> scene of a movie where tradmarked goods are shown on screen
> there is an extremely large staff of people envolved with
> making sure permission is granted by the owner of the materials
> in question.

Although in the movie case, they spend even more time negotiating "product
placement" fees *from* the trademark holders!

My bottom line suggestion is: avoid "fan art" - no Enterprises, Batmen, Tie
fighters, Mickey Mice etc.  Don't make a specific trademark or trademarked
character the focus of your image.  And if you do have a trademarked item in the
image, for safety's sake don't do anything that could be interpreted as
disparaging it.  But if you do, say, a restaurant table with a Coke bottle among
the bowls and dishes or even a Garfield calendar on a background wall, don't
sweat it.  Many, many past IRTC images, including some excellent ones have
technically infringed trademarks and/or copyrights.  So far, I know of no
trouble resulting.  But I would hate to see some humorless corporate dweeb get
the IRTC blown out of the water.  So please don't push it, people.

Jerry Anning
cle### [at] dholcom

***DISCLAIMER***
Although I have had to spend a fair amount of time researching these matters on
behalf of various people, I am *not* a lawyer.  So please don't shun me!

Post a reply to this message

Ken wrote:

> I think the laws of protection are for cicumstances where
> profitability are concerned. In the case of the i.r.t.c
> where the entrant has the oppertunity to win a prize
> with real world value by using trademarked material is
> in fact in violation of the intent of the law. To use such
> material for ones own use is probably permissable.
>
> I mentioned the case of Disney and the day care center but
> there is another even more valid example of using such materials
> without permission. That would be the movie industry. In every
> scene of a movie where tradmarked goods are shown on screen
> there is an extremely large staff of people envolved with
> making sure permission is granted by the owner of the materials
> in question.
>

Yes, and to go in hand with that, often the various trademark owners want to get
their products placed, and may have people hired to assist in that (Hey!
Superman really needs to be eating Cherios, let's give you some and you can put
them in your movie...). I'd assume that besides other issues, they would take
care of any legal clearances.

Unfortunately, I don't think we in the ray tracing community have people like
that courting us. Oh well.

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A question here.
Cincerning a song-lyric, where to go to get contact concearning the use of the text ??

I had the whole theme built around this, including the text exisitng in plain view,
all
this for an IRTC entry(imaginary worlds).
Now, my problem is, I can't get a contact with the people owning the copyright.

Since the text is not included with the record(Mine is a bootleg.) and there is no
contact
information for either band or producer. Anyone has an idea of how to act ??

//Spider

Post a reply to this message

On Fri, 29 Jan 1999 12:45:55 +0100, Spider <spi### [at] bahnhofse> wrote:
>A question here.
>Cincerning a song-lyric, where to go to get contact concearning the use of the text
??
>
>I had the whole theme built around this, including the text exisitng in plain view,
all
>this for an IRTC entry(imaginary worlds).
>Now, my problem is, I can't get a contact with the people owning the copyright.
>
>Since the text is not included with the record(Mine is a bootleg.) and there is no
contact
>information for either band or producer. Anyone has an idea of how to act ??

You could try finding someone who has the appropriate literature, or you
could try contacting ASCAP and/or BMI, who should be able to direct you 
to the right place.  Last time I looked, neither was well-represented on
the Web, so this might necessitate a few international calls to the USA.

I did this once in a previous life and never did find the right place, 
but that might have been merely a case of insufficient persistence on 
my part coupled with a song for which nobody seems to know who is the 
copyright owner (Old McDonald's Farm).

With the whole brouhaha over lyrics.ch, you'll want to tread very, very 
carefully around anything having to do with lyrics...

Post a reply to this message

:::
> You could try finding someone who has the appropriate literature, or you
> could try contacting ASCAP and/or BMI, who should be able to direct you
> to the right place.  Last time I looked, neither was well-represented on
> the Web, so this might necessitate a few international calls to the USA.
Thankyou, I'll give it a shot... but then, long distance is notr easy for me }:-\
 
> I did this once in a previous life and never did find the right place,
> but that might have been merely a case of insufficient persistence on
> my part coupled with a song for which nobody seems to know who is the
> copyright owner (Old McDonald's Farm).
Oki, i'm more after Sisters Of Mercy's song "Under the gun" As I said, I don't have
any
reference on the CD...
 
> With the whole brouhaha over lyrics.ch, you'll want to tread very, very
> carefully around anything having to do with lyrics...
Yes, I thought of this to... That's the reason I ask now...

//Spider

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Spider wrote:
> 
> A question here.
> Cincerning a song-lyric, where to go to get contact concearning the use of the text
??
> 
> I had the whole theme built around this, including the text exisitng in plain view,
all
> this for an IRTC entry(imaginary worlds).
> Now, my problem is, I can't get a contact with the people owning the copyright.
> 
> Since the text is not included with the record(Mine is a bootleg.) and there is no
contact
> information for either band or producer. Anyone has an idea of how to act ??

If you want to play it safe, drop this idea entirely.  The author Spider (!)
Robinson once wanted to quote a few lines from a song in one of his novels and
the relevant legal types wanted reimbursement measured in *thousands* of US
dollars!  Fortunately for Robinson, the musician himself was angry with his
agent/publishers/whatever (I forget the details) and granted Robinson permission
essentially to spite them.  I wouldn't count on that kind of luck.

Jerry Anning
cle### [at] dholcom

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On 27 Jan 1999 14:21:01 -0500, Ron Parker <par### [at] my-dejanewscom> wrote:
>2) Assuming it is legal to do this in the art world, 
>   is it legal in IRTC?

Heh.  I should have reread the IRTC stills rules before I asked:

3-d. You may use objects and textures downloaded from the internet or 
     purchased commercially, but it is not encouraged. Similarly you 
     may use other people's images as image-maps or textures within 
     your own work. In all cases, you must get permission from the 
     creator of the object or image. If you use such objects or images, 
     you must make this known with proper acknowledgments in the text 
     file accompanying your submission. You may not violate copyrights 
     of any sort. 

Since it is an IRTC requirement that I get permission whether or not
copyright law would allow the usage, I guess I'll stick with the can
of POV Soup.

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