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On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 17:44:59 -0500, clipka wrote:
> I was actually hoping for something more substantial than the usual
> "RTFM" type of replies - that someone might be willing to invest maybe
> 15 minutes to save me from spending half a day trying to dig up the very
> same information myself.
And seeing that you got an answer, that's great - maybe you need to read
esr's article on how to ask smart questions? ( http://www.catb.org/~esr/
faqs/smart-questions.html )
I can understand your frustration and whatnot, but picking the proper
community to ask is often the first step in asking a good question. I
personally would tend to eliminate the factors I could (as I attempted to
do by asking if it seemed to be a MegaPOV problem or a kernel problem by
eliminating MegaPOV from the picture - something that wasn't clear to me
in your initial post).
As a reader of these forums and not recognizing your name, I (and Warp,
and Thierry, and anyone else reading here) have no idea what your level
of experience is with computers. We have to assume you know only what
you've told us.
Then asking us to do the work for you - well, what's our motivation
here? It took me 10 seconds to google your question (see my prior
response), and the first non-PDF response suggests a boot parameter that
probably would also solve the problem for you.
Seriously, have a look at Eric Raymond's essay on asking intelligent
questions. It's something anyone who works with computers and uses
online communities should understand. I distilled your question to "I
run Debian; my clock runs fast. How do I fix it?", googled "debian clock
runs fast" and got a result.
One of esr's points in his essay on asking intelligent questions is to
distill the problem to the simplest form and ask your question - don't
guess at the answer. He's got an excellent example of a bad question and
how it can be rewritten as a good question that will get you help.
Please *please* note that I'm not trying to attack you - I'm trying to
help you help yourself so you don't take so much time to get a problem
resolved.
Jim
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Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospam com> wrote:
> Then asking us to do the work for you - well, what's our motivation
> here?
Maybe nothing more than just helping others...?
> It took me 10 seconds to google your question (see my prior
> response), and the first non-PDF response suggests a boot parameter that
> probably would also solve the problem for you.
Notice something? Took me 3 hours 30 to google that bloody thing - not even
counting my *FIRST* attempt at it, which was probably somewhere between 30
minutes and an hour.
That's *THOUSAND* times the 10 seconds that you say it took *YOU*.
GEEZ! I *DID* search for that f*** sh** like "Debian clock fast", I'm telling
you! But me being primarily a Windows Jockey, I had *NO* idea whatsoever what
to keep my eyes peeled for! I didn't even *KNOW* there is something like boot
parameters; the seemingly more common term "kernel parameters" sounded to me
rather like "recompile your kernel" - which is *NOT* something I would have
wanted to do without anyone guiding me through that.
So, how do you imagine I should have recognized that the first non-PDF response
could possibly be just the thing I was looking for - in some freakin' 10
seconds? And how could I have possibly learned in those 10 seconds how to
actually *implement* a solution from the information in that PDF???
> One of esr's points in his essay on asking intelligent questions is to
> distill the problem to the simplest form and ask your question - don't
> guess at the answer. He's got an excellent example of a bad question and
> how it can be rewritten as a good question that will get you help.
Asking intelligent questions requires at least *SOME* knowledge about the thing
you're having problems with.
So here I am, having already googled for loads of different combinations of
"Linux", "Debian", "clock", "time", "fast" and whatever you can possibly
imagine, without finding anything *I* could comprehend, let alone actually put
to use - so how else should I have put it?
> Please *please* note that I'm not trying to attack you - I'm trying to
> help you help yourself so you don't take so much time to get a problem
> resolved.
Man, that's crap! This "hey, I can google it up in 10 seconds so please don't
pester me with that and instead read that f*** essay and go find out yourself
you lazy bum" - attitude is real bullshit. If you *can* google it up in 10
seconds, why don't you invest that time to help me, instead of wasting it by
writing a reply that's no help at all???
You know what? Technology didn't advance by everyone learning to do everything.
It advanced by people specializing on different things. Means that people
concentrate on things they're good at, and don't waste time on things others
can do with significantly less effort. Doesn't seem to have reached the "RTFM!"
advocates though.
I have no intention of becoming a Linux Guru myself, so why don't you just stop
trying to teach me to become one, and instead just go ahead and help me solve
my problem?!
(Well, it's a rethorical question, no need solving it anymore. Clock seems to be
running fine now.)
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clipka wrote:
> Asking intelligent questions requires at least *SOME* knowledge about the thing
> you're having problems with.
Yes, and you had that knowledge already given the nature of your first post:
your problem was clearly not related to POV (or MegaPOV for that matter) but rather
to Linux (kernel or distro). So why asking your question here?
- NC
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Nicolas Calimet <pov### [at] freefr> wrote:
> your problem was clearly not related to POV (or MegaPOV for that matter) but rather
> to Linux (kernel or distro). So why asking your question here?
Maybe because from the posts & articles I found by Googling, I didn't expect
much of the "Linux Community" forums, in terms of providing answers that a Noob
like me could understand, and was hoping to get help from people with a more
pragmatic view on Linux, that still can put themselves in the place of someone
who just wants to *use* the thing.
Add that I have no intention to watch yet *another* forum closely... or actually
a whole bunch of forums, as I have not the slightest clue in which of them I may
get the type of answer that could actually help me as a Noob.
Sure one can take the "POV-related Unix questions" to a fundamentalistic level.
But I see it more pragmatically: My motivation in getting Linux to run smoothly
is *exclusively* related to PoV-ray (well, MegaPoV). So for me, the natural
interface to "the Linux community" is the Unix part of the PoV-ray community.
And last not least, given the information I had found during my first "Googling
Run", it seemed to me that I *might* have to opt for a different Linux
distribution (or rebuild a kernel, which I decided was *not* a reasonable
option for me). Can you tell me *any* other place where to expect better
recommendations for a Linux distribution that would fit *my* needs, if not
*this* very forum??
After all, it's about PoV-ray - which is *the* one and only software I intend to
run on the system (apart from tools to help me do that) - and Unix, isn't it?!?!
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On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 22:30:30 -0500, clipka wrote:
[huge rant deleted]
> I have no intention of becoming a Linux Guru myself, so why don't you
> just stop trying to teach me to become one, and instead just go ahead
> and help me solve my problem?!
>
> (Well, it's a rethorical question, no need solving it anymore. Clock
> seems to be running fine now.)
Dude, chill out. I'm trying to help you learn how to help yourself, not
how to become a Linux Guru. Excuse me for trying to help you learn how
to search for information yourself so you can find what you're looking
for more efficiently.
Jim
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Jim Henderson wrote:
> Excuse me for trying to help you learn how
> to search for information yourself so you can find what you're looking
> for more efficiently.
The aggravation is not worth what you're being paid, is it Jim? ;-)
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On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 10:16:18 -0500, Kyle wrote:
> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Excuse me for trying to help you learn how to search for information
>> yourself so you can find what you're looking for more efficiently.
>
>
> The aggravation is not worth what you're being paid, is it Jim? ;-)
If I doubled my salary for answering a question like that, well, I'd
still be at 0. :-)
It always amazes me that there are people who don't know how to ask for
help in a way that gets them help as well as how to search for an answer.
I used to work in a bookstore (years and years ago). We'd have people
come in to get a book on Lotus 1-2-3 that told them how to do "x". I'd
walk them back to the section that had the Lotus 1-2-3 books were and
they'd pull a random book off the bookshelf and start flipping through
the Table of Contents or just browsing the book.
I'd grab a book and look at the index. I'd also start thinking of
alternative terms for what they were trying to do (ie, word
association). If the book didn't have it in the index, I'd grab the next
book and repeat.
In the time they were looking at one book, I'd go through 4 or 5 and end
up with a few suggestions for them. They were usually amazed that I was
able to make a quick recommendation like that, but it wasn't that I knew
the books, it was just that I knew how to find what they were looking for
quickly.
Learning how to get help isn't hard - it's when someone starts demanding
answers without doing their homework properly that it gets annoying. I
don't know how many hundreds of thousands of messages I've posted on
newsgroups and in public forums over the years - but I know it numbers in
the hundreds of thousands. I used to answer upwards of 1,000 messages a
week on CompuServe back in the early 90's.
Jim
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Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> It always amazes me that there are people who don't know how to ask for
> help in a way that gets them help as well as how to search for an answer.
Jim, before giving such statemens, which I may consider an insult, please...
- elaborate in which way I asked "the wrong questions", or however you like to
put it,
- take note of the fact that usually I *DO* know how to search for answers
myself, and I'm also convinced that I normally *DO* know how to ask "smart
questions".
- crank your arrogance down a notch, and become aware of the fact that a topic
may be so complex to a noob, that asking the right questions (and, maybe even
more, filtering out helpful answers and/or understanding them) can become a
complex problem in itself.
Please note that if someone asks you to find an answer to his problem, he may
actually *need* someone to do that for him. Not because he's generally too
stupid to ask smart questions, but because in this particular case he simply
lacks the essential background knowledge that you may have plenty of.
It's easy to look down on people in such a situation as if they were just trying
to steal *your* time & energy instead of investing *theirs*. I was aware of this
problem from the very beginning, even while I was writing that initial post, and
tried my best to avoid this kind of reaction. Looks like I didn't succeed in
that.
I'm a freelancing software developer, and know of the value of time. But I also
believe that if a problem can be solved by one person in 10 seconds that would
take the other hours, then it would be a horrendous waste of productivity to
let that poor guy actually spend those multiple hours.
I myself am more than willing to invest a few minutes of my time if I can help
someone out - even if I'm *not* paid for it, for nothing but the hope that I
might be treated likewise when I need help. Looks like you are not.
Case closed, at least as far as I'm concerned. My clock has been runing smoothly
ever since, and my general solution-finding skills are much better than you
possibly guess.
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A "sorry" from my side to all of you, most of all Jim.
I did post my plead for help in this newsgroup in good faith.
I did post it *after* having searched for an answer already, which usually I
*am* good at.
I knew my post was not perfectly on-topic. I also knew I might be mistaken for
just being too lazy to invest his own time. I tried to avoid such a reaction,
but I failed at that, as it seems.
I was in a rage about the problem, I was in a rage about my inability to
find an answer myself in this case, and later I was in a rage about some
"solutions" that turned out not to work - all of which made it easy for me to
get in a rage about the reactions I received, and I "happily" took that
opportunity to let off steam. Lots of steam, and - for most parts - rather
undeserved.
Not the usual "operating mode" I'm in.
Again: Sorry folks.
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On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 18:36:47 -0500, clipka wrote:
> A "sorry" from my side to all of you, most of all Jim.
No problem - I know that it's easy to get wound up (I just nuked a rather
long reply because I hadn't seen this yet).
It happens, don't worry about it. I've learned over the years not to
take things too personally from people I've only just met online. I
choose not to be offended most of the time. :-)
For my part, I apologise for any escalation my comments may have caused.
I was trying to help by pointing you to a good resource or two because I
wanted you to get help from people who did know.
Water over the bridge, as my dad would've said. :-)
Jim
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