Chris Cason <del### [at] deletethistoopovrayorg> wrote:

> > There are job-search sites, and perhaps there are types of job headings that
> > requests for developers could be listed under.  A shiny ray-traced graphic or
> > two and a link to the HOF could pique someone's interest.
>
> I considered reaching out to some of my contacts in .edu-land to see if
> I could get some interested students.

Paul Bourke certainly seems to have enjoyed POV-Ray, and Apparently there are
still some professors out there who send their students this way to dabble in
the black art of CPU raytracing.

> The
> person really needs to genuinely be interested in POV-Ray itself, and if
> they are then it's likely they'll approach us (or we'll hear of some
> work they've been doing).

They do.  But they also need to be aware of POV-Ray at all, and there at least
needs to be the "FREE CANDY" sign on the van in the parking lot to entice them
to come over and look...   ;)
If you and others are clearly aware of what a CPU raytracer can do that
GPU-software _can't_ - then making that list of things available to us and any
potentially interested parties would go far.

You have all of these important pieces of detailed factual data that anyone
considering assisting you needs.   We need them to be instantly available and
easily accessible so that in the 5 minutes I'm not being distracted by any of 12
things and I'm right there in a news feed where I could make the plug for
POV-Ray, I can just pull whatever I need up, copy, paste, done.
Having such lists of things right on the front web page also addresses the
concern that POV-Ray can appear quite stagnant, even though it does have more
usage than it appears to.

> Secondly, in depth-work on povray can be *hard* to get right. Sure, it's
> easy to make tweaks here and there but to really work on the program as
> a whole you need to have a solid grasp on how everything works together
> as adding what appears to be a simple feature has the potential, in some
> cases, to do really unexpected things *if* you don't know how it works
> as a whole. To get a developer up to speed on the guts as a whole takes
> time. Plus whoever it is needs to be really competent with C++ and
> unmanaged languages (by which I mean having to do your own memory
> management).

Yes - I've sifted through the source code on a number of occasions, payed
attention to clipka, and I understand what you mean.

> That said, I can see where we *could* use a student or less-experienced
> developer who wanted to round out their background a bit: it would be
> great to have someone formally document the inner workings in a detailed
> form (i.e. at least enough so that someone who doesn't know how
> everything fits together could read it and understand). This would make
> getting up to speed on the codebase for anyone who wants to do so a fair
> bit easier and would also help in splitting it into bits for the 4.0
> rewrite.
>
> But that's a lot of work ...

Yes.   But something that we can get started and work on, stepwise.


> Many people seem to think GPU raytracing is the
> future and software renderers are dead but simply don't understand that
> at this point GPU's are still incapable of the level of precision and
> generic applicability that a fully primitive-based renderer is, and I
> don't see that changing anytime soon (as there's no real need to).

vide supra.

> But you know what? Despite the fact
> this thread has been a bit, um, rowdy, it's shown me that there's still
> a bunch of people who do care and has helped improve my feelings about
> the whole thing. I might even enjoy getting stuck back into the code,
> time will tell.
>
> -- Chris

Thanks again Chris.
Gotta go do the things.  bbl

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On Thu, 23 Jul 2020 03:47:24 -0400, jr wrote:

> Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>> On Wed, 22 Jul 2020 17:53:30 -0400, jr wrote:
>>
>> > read/learned about 'control message'.  thanks.
>>
>> I await your apology for insinuating that I lied to you about my role
>> in the project.
> 
> it takes two to tango.  you used "*plonk*" in your previous message, (I
> think) to emphasise the .. finality.  do you want to change your mind? 
> because both of us would need to be willing to .. climb down.  the
> offer: you stop conducting your, um, witch hunt, and I will keep my
> tongue in check.

No, you don't get to offer being civil in exchange for anything.  I 
called you out for your blatant rudeness and attitude that you're 
entitled to anything.  That doesn't change.  You were (and are) rude, and 
you are not entitled to anything from anyone here.

And you certainly don't get to hold civility hostage *because* you got 
called out for being rude and acting like you were owed *anything*.

Your insinuation that I was lying about my involvement in the project 
based on your total lack of comprehension as to how NNTP works is 
completely separate from your attitude in this entire discussion, that 
Chris & Co somehow "owe" you something, that you're "entitled" to 
explanations, and your general rudeness.

You owe Chris an apology as well for your rudeness.  I simply called you 
out for it, and I will not apologize nor stand down from that position.  
(How's that for "being direct"?  See?  It can be done without being 
blatantly rude.)

As for the "*plonk*" - I've filtered your posts so I only see them if I 
decide I want to even deal with you.

Back to the filter you go.

-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

Post a reply to this message

Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Jul 2020 03:47:24 -0400, jr wrote:
>
> > Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> >> On Wed, 22 Jul 2020 17:53:30 -0400, jr wrote:
> >>
> >> > read/learned about 'control message'.  thanks.
> >>
> >> I await your apology for insinuating that I lied to you about my role
> >> in the project.
> >
> > it takes two to tango.  you used "*plonk*" in your previous message, (I
> > think) to emphasise the .. finality.  do you want to change your mind?
> > because both of us would need to be willing to .. climb down.  the
> > offer: you stop conducting your, um, witch hunt, and I will keep my
> > tongue in check.
>
> No, you don't get to offer being civil in exchange for anything.  I
> called you out for your blatant rudeness and attitude that you're
> entitled to anything.  That doesn't change.  You were (and are) rude, and
> you are not entitled to anything from anyone here.
>
> And you certainly don't get to hold civility hostage *because* you got
> called out for being rude and acting like you were owed *anything*.
>
> Your insinuation that I was lying about my involvement in the project
> based on your total lack of comprehension as to how NNTP works is
> completely separate from your attitude in this entire discussion, that
> Chris & Co somehow "owe" you something, that you're "entitled" to
> explanations, and your general rudeness.

<http://news.povray.org/web.5efdaf83f0cdacfc4d00143e0%40news.povray.org>

read it.  excepting the last paragraph where, arguably, I was "rude", the
_whole_ post is about "Chris & Co somehow "owe"" the _user community_, in my
opinion, fwiw.  yet, you persist in making this a personal thing, about "me".

know what?

> ... "*plonk*" ...

Post a reply to this message

On Thu, 23 Jul 2020 11:41:41 -0400, jr wrote:

> read it.  excepting the last paragraph where, arguably, I was "rude",
> the _whole_ post is about "Chris & Co somehow "owe"" the _user
> community_, in my opinion, fwiw.  yet, you persist in making this a
> personal thing, about "me".
> 
> know what?
> 
>> ... "*plonk*" ...

Good luck with that.

In the words of Stephen Colbert:  I accept your apology.



-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

Post a reply to this message

I reply because it gives me opportunity to write the sentence better.

Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Jul 2020 11:41:41 -0400, jr wrote:
>
> > read it.  excepting the last paragraph where, arguably, I was "rude",
> > the _whole_ post is about "Chris & Co somehow "owe"" the _user
> > community_, in my opinion, fwiw.  yet, you persist in making this a
> > personal thing, about "me".

I ought to have written: ... "Chris & Co somehow "owe"" it to the _user
community_, and to POV-Ray itself, in my ...

> >
> > know what?
> >
> >> ... "*plonk*" ...
>
> Good luck with that.
>
> In the words of Stephen Colbert:  I accept your apology.

Wikipedia tells me he's someone in TV.  I'm a radio person, don't own, nor
watch, TV.  therefore ***whooosh***.


and I apologise to the reader for continuing to carry out this .. spat in
public.  netiquette, as I found out reading about message cancellation, requires
both parties to dislike one another in private :-), via email.  (while mine is
available, Mr H's is not)

Post a reply to this message

On Thu, 23 Jul 2020 13:50:03 -0400, jr wrote:

> I reply because it gives me opportunity to write the sentence better.
> 
> Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>> On Thu, 23 Jul 2020 11:41:41 -0400, jr wrote:
>>
>> > read it.  excepting the last paragraph where, arguably, I was "rude",
>> > the _whole_ post is about "Chris & Co somehow "owe"" the _user
>> > community_, in my opinion, fwiw.  yet, you persist in making this a
>> > personal thing, about "me".
> 
> I ought to have written: ... "Chris & Co somehow "owe"" it to the _user
> community_, and to POV-Ray itself, in my ...
> 
> 
>> > know what?
>> >
>> >> ... "*plonk*" ...
>>
>> Good luck with that.
>>
>> In the words of Stephen Colbert:  I accept your apology.
> 
> Wikipedia tells me he's someone in TV.  I'm a radio person, don't own,
> nor watch, TV.  therefore ***whooosh***.

That's fine.  I still accept your apology for calling me a liar.

> and I apologise to the reader for continuing to carry out this .. spat
> in public.  netiquette, as I found out reading about message
> cancellation, requires both parties to dislike one another in private
> :-), via email.  (while mine is available, Mr H's is not)

There's a reason I don't use a valid e-mail address.  I leave that as an 
exercise for the reader.  People who have a need to know know how to get 
in touch with me.

Netiquette also requires being polite when making requests of people.  
Hopefully you've learned something about that and didn't engage in some 
selective reading.

-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

Post a reply to this message

Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Jul 2020 13:50:03 -0400, jr wrote:
>
> > I reply because it gives me opportunity to write the sentence better.
> >
> > Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> >> On Thu, 23 Jul 2020 11:41:41 -0400, jr wrote:
> >>
> >> > read it.  excepting the last paragraph where, arguably, I was "rude",
> >> > the _whole_ post is about "Chris & Co somehow "owe"" the _user
> >> > community_, in my opinion, fwiw.  yet, you persist in making this a
> >> > personal thing, about "me".
> >
> > I ought to have written: ... "Chris & Co somehow "owe"" it to the _user
> > community_, and to POV-Ray itself, in my ...
> >
> >
> >> > know what?
> >> >
> >> >> ... "*plonk*" ...
> >>
> >> Good luck with that.
> >>
> >> In the words of Stephen Colbert:  I accept your apology.
> >
> > Wikipedia tells me he's someone in TV.  I'm a radio person, don't own,
> > nor watch, TV.  therefore ***whooosh***.
>
> That's fine.  I still accept your apology for calling me a liar.
>
> > and I apologise to the reader for continuing to carry out this .. spat
> > in public.  netiquette, as I found out reading about message
> > cancellation, requires both parties to dislike one another in private
> > :-), via email.  (while mine is available, Mr H's is not)
>
> There's a reason I don't use a valid e-mail address.  I leave that as an
> exercise for the reader.  People who have a need to know know how to get
> in touch with me.

my, my, you really are (in the vernacular) as thick as two short planks.

given your background, you should have been polite and taken your .. fist
shaking off-list.  you had the opportunity, multiple times, and apparently knew
about that rule all along.  (inexcusable)

> ...

(and no, no apology for "as thick as", and no apology for implying you lack(ed)
.... veracity; ie you're playing games, and that, at least, is not true to the
spirit of the thread's topic)

jr.

Post a reply to this message

Chris Cason <del### [at] deletethistoopovrayorg> wrote:
> On 23/07/2020 21:05, Bald Eagle wrote:
> > At the moment, the major 4 points that I see are:
> [snip]
>
> Perhaps I misunderstood: I thought you meant an update about the POV
> project rather than moray?

Perhaps - it's easy almost to the point of effortlessness when dealing with
texts, emails, newsgroup posts, etc.

An update about the POV project would of course be great - a short list of 3.8
additions, the loss of our primary developer, the need for new developers and
people to document the flow of POV-Ray's source code...
That would all tie in rather well.

But yes, I was speaking about Moray, since it's the least understood, and the
topic most fraught with unnecessary confusion.   People could merely click on
HOME, read a short blurb that clarifies _everything_, and be done.

Post a reply to this message

On Thu, 23 Jul 2020 15:31:22 -0400, jr wrote:

>> There's a reason I don't use a valid e-mail address.  I leave that as
>> an exercise for the reader.  People who have a need to know know how to
>> get in touch with me.
> 
> my, my, you really are (in the vernacular) as thick as two short planks.

Wow, you really don't know how to behave in public, do you?  You want to 
continue to be insulting rather than just walk away.

Way to show your true colors.

> given your background, you should have been polite and taken your ..
> fist shaking off-list.  you had the opportunity, multiple times, and
> apparently knew about that rule all along.  (inexcusable)
> 

Consider for a moment how you're reacting to my perhaps rather 
intentional rudeness in your direction.  You don't like it very much, do 
you?

It's different when the shoe is on the other foot, isn't it?

Maybe consider that the next time you decide to rant in public.  You want 
to tell me to take a personal dispute with you "off list", but you are in 
fact the one who took personal issue with the entire project and decided 
to vent in public.  Perhaps a private venue would have been more suitable.

You clearly wanted to start a fight with your original post, and with 
your follow-up with Chris.  I can't help but notice that you have barely 
engaged with his responses, and that says a lot about your motivations.

You brought a shit-ton of negativity in at the outset, and then said 
"what?  me?" and clutched your pearls when called out for it.

Take a look at how Bald Eagle is engaging with Chris.  That's a 
productive discussion.  It's a useful discussion, and it's actually 
*helping*.

What you did?  Not so much.

>> ...
> 
> (and no, no apology for "as thick as", and no apology for implying you
> lack(ed)
> .... veracity; ie you're playing games, and that, at least, is not true
> to the spirit of the thread's topic)

I know that you know, deep down, that you behaved badly - in name-calling 
and in calling me a liar in public about my role in the project.  You 
*know* that what you did was wrong, but because of my response, you have 
raised your defenses and can't bring yourself to admit that in public, 
because you don't want to show weakness (even though admitting one's 
error is certainly not an admission of weakness - sadly, that's something 
not enough people understand these days).

Nevertheless, I accept your apology.  I know you *want* to, but you can't 
because you feel you'll "lose face".  That's OK.  I get it.

As for me, I'll apologize to you for opting to respond "in-kind" to your 
rudeness by way of making a point.  Clearly as smart as you are, that 
approach doesn't work with you.  I made an error in judgment in how best 
to call you out for your rudeness.  In all honesty, your rudeness simply 
pissed me off because it was directed at someone I've known for years and 
think of as a friend, and it was (and is) uncalled for.  For my choice of 
approach, I am sorry.

-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

Post a reply to this message

Coming a bit late to the discussion, life and all kinds of twists and turns been
getting on the way. I can see a lot of concerns being raised, as well as light
being shed on a good deal of stuff already. Important info on eg. the state of
development, things lurking in the background, even some history and what it has
been taking for making POV go through all these years and having it working on
modern equipment. My humble thanks for all that indeed! :)

At this point I'm afraid I haven't got much to say what it comes to for example
hopping along in development, coding, maintenance etc., sadly it's all way
outside of my expertise and capabilities. However, as both an active long time
POV user and as visiting the news groups pretty much on a daily basis, I'd like
to express my most sincere gratitude for the existence of POV-Ray as a whole.

I found POV back in the late '93, when a family friend gave me a 3.5" disk with
a version 2.0 on it. I think it was included on some PC magazine of that time
and there was a huge article on 3D and ray-tracing. I remember printing out the
whole povdoc file with our dot matrix printer, and oh the joy of even trying to
render anything with a 386SX 16 MHz. :D Somewhere during the first half of '94
we got a 486DX2 66 MHz in the house, and also got my hands on POV version 2.2,
so things started rollin' wild for real. Although a ray-tracing joke for some,
but at least I have ever since updated my comps according to how fast I can
render with POV. :D

All the way up to this day and through every official version over the years,
POV has been my main software of choice. In some random utility sense I've used
for example TopMod, Silo 2 Pro, Wings 3D and PoseRay in my workflow for certain
projects, but in the end it's always been the POV SDL environment where I really
feel at home. Nothing else comes even close, and using any other software almost
feels like a sacrilege. :D Back in the past I tried some old trial version of
Moray, but didn't really get the hang of it. Perhaps, if it ever sees a
comeback, I'd surely give it a new try though!

Now after all this time and many great years of POVing, I'm just so unspeakably
happy that POV is still around. From the bottom of my heart I wish things would
turn out well so we could have POV with us for the next 25 years as well!
Cheers! :)

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