hi,

Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 17:41:25 -0400, jr wrote:
> ...
> > there you go again, "you don't get to dictate..".  what makes you think
> > I am trying to tell anyone how to their life?
>
> The fact that you're bitching about stagnation in development, and
> essentially trying to order people to "get with the program and get some
> work done" (I know, not a direct quote - this is how you're coming
> across).

stagnation, yes, and not confined to development.  and yes, I aired my
"perceived grievances".

> ...
> >> > (for some reason everybody seems real .. coy when talk of Moray
> >> > looms)
> >>
> >> Hey, I'd like to see Moray come back to life as well.  But I can't
> >> contribute to it, and I sure as hell am not going to criticize people
> >> who have their own busy lives to live for not doing something that I'm
> >> not willing or able to step up and contribute to.
> >
> > eg had the source been put some place public, like the wiki, or even
> > github, more than just a select few could have at least have a look at
> > the .. task at hand.
>
> And if you read a little about the history, you'd know that the code
> *can't* be published publicly because there is proprietary code that
> needs to be scrubbed.

_parts_ of the code.  no reason why the remainder could not have been worked on,
and no reason why a functional specification of the proprietary code could not
have been published.

and no, personally I could not contribute to a C++ code base, however, I, as I'm
sure are others, would be prepared to contribute via some type of subscription
model, to fund the odd "journey man", for instance.

> ...
> > surely, whether you personally or someone else with access, could have
> > sometime in the past couple of years or so, added an item re the 3.8.0
> > alphas?  (I mean, seriously, how many minutes would one need writing
> > ~150 words?)
>
> You're making assumptions about my role within the team that simply
> aren't true.

I assume that, even in a small team of volunteers (and even if all of those
volunteers were single parents), within a time frame of a good two years,
_someone_ will find five minutes to  write a piece, and a further five minutes
to update the website, to "announce" the 3.8.0 alpha(s).  are you telling me I'm
(completely) wrong?

> ...
> >> I didn't see you step up in the past 13 years after Lutz handed off
> >> Moray to the POV-Ray project and say "how can I help facilitate getting
> >> this code reviewed and made available?".
> >
> > no, have not been .. povving for that long.  and, in fairness, I'm not
> > the first to enquire about Moray, and what's happening.
>
> From your rant:
>
> "then, lastly, there's the .. inertia.  the "illness" of the head.
> how many years have you now been sitting on the Moray source?
> (hint: Tony Blair was then still Prime Minister of the UK, and the
> financial crisis of 2008 was not yet on the horizon)"
>
> That's not "enquiring about Moray and what's happening" - that's whining,
> plain and simple.

rant, whining, same thing.  as advertised.  I've addressed "Moray" above, and
see nothing wrong with .. venting frustration when "things get kicked in the
long grass" for years on end.

> ...
> > directness, I'd call it.  :-)  look, I've no intention of letting this
> > develop in to a .. slanging match.  I am simply concerned that the
> > s/ware I've grown fond of using, isn't thriving.  and I'm more concerned
> > now, because days turn into weeks, weeks turn into months, etc, and yet,
> > no real attempt at communicating the context.
>
> So maybe ask a question instead of whining and bitching about various
> aspects that aren't moving to your personal satisfaction.  Don't be a
> dick about it, be respectful of the fact that people have lives, and you
> don't know what they're doing.
>
> You weren't direct.  You were just plain rude.
>
> You aren't letting this "develop in to a .. slanging match" - you started
> by slinging shit.  You don't get to walk away and pretend you didn't try
> to start something here.
>
> I have been a member of this community for decades.  Chris and I had a
> really nice reminiscence about the early days on CompuServe a few years
> back.  I would love to see this code thrive, but I know my own
> limitations, and I understand that people get busy and their priorities
> in life shift.  The last thing that's needed is someone coming in here
> stirring shit under the guise of "I'm doing this because I love this
> software" without offering concrete ways in which they might be able to
> help.

so where then is the wiki or wherever page which lists the things "to do"?
where is the out-reach to community asking for specific help on this or that?
in order to offer help, it would help (pun intended) to know of specific
outstanding tasks/issues.  can you even point to any ng post in the last, uh,
four years or so, where you, or a member of the mysterious TAG, has asked for
help with anything?

> You want things to improve, start by looking over your rant and pick out
> a few things you think you might be able to help with, and then instead
> of talking about how "the head is ill", offer specific ways in which you
> might help.  Maybe that's running an IRC channel and helping promote it.
> Maybe it's helping do link checks to ensure that links that are broken
> don't remain so.

just seeing that news-which-isn't section of the website suggests that dead
links, for example, if reported, would be addressed with the same .. alacrity?
(if no one in the whole POV-Ray "team" found time in the last two years to write
a 3.8.0 item, what chance they'd find time updating the links section?)

as for the "head is ill" analogy, I think that the talk posted by ingo made good
points about how "maintainers" can create environments where cooperation is
productive; part of it is communicating the "broad brush strokes", and I see no
evidence of even that.

(and if I had the technical know-how to set up and maintain an IRC channel, for
instance, don't you think I'd have one on the go already?)

> But what you posted to try to elicit a response?  Completely useless,
> pointless, and downright rude.

not sure about "pointless", unless you're happy with the .. status quo, as to
"completely useless", likely, that's the thing about "inertia".  and rudeness,
well, my rant was written to provoke a (long overdue, imo) look at the "now" --
where does POV-Ray go from here.  so far I hear a lot of criticism in response
to my critique, but not a single real answer.  (the whole "atmosphere" strikes
me as one like a big family gathering, when a child asks "where's uncle X?" and
every adult looks at one another, stricken faces, and then one will give an
"answer" that isn't any)


regards, jr.

Post a reply to this message

On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 18:38:32 -0400, Bald Eagle wrote:

> Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> 
>> Everyone's lives are different.  You don't get to dictate the terms
>> that other people live their lives by.
> 
> If only the world of People held to that when they voted.  :|

This isn't a democracy, so that line of thinking really doesn't apply.

>> >> >> Instead of complaining, maybe offer to help out where you can.
> 
> To be fair, I think that's a more difficult proposition than it seems.  
> It's like throwing a resume out into the job market.

He's identified several things that are not coding-related where he could 
step up and offer to assist.  Instead, he bitches about them.

That's not helpful.

> Personalities aside, I think that the core issue is still that no one
> knows who is responsible for what, and it's hard to grasp what can and
> needs to be done when one is not privy to things discussed by "the dev
> team" and other groups with various designations.

That is probably a fair assessment (I wouldn't speak for the pov team).

> When there are difficulties, it is easy to deflect any and all
> discussion by painting someone as [merely] "a complainer".  Or to ignore
> them, or simply maintain radio silence.
> "What you allow, is what will continue."
> Perhaps jr is being "disagreeable," but that doesn't invalidate any of
> his points, and it is perhaps, what is needed.  If POV-Ray was a
> company, it would be sensible to listen to and consider the customer's
> [user's] concerns. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WXo1aFb8MY

He's not being merely disagreeable.  He's being rude.

Your reply here is a great example of how to raise concerns without being 
a jerk.  (I for one appreciate that)

>> >> Being impatient isn't going to make things go faster.
> On the flipside, one might say that being patient won't either.

Being rude and impatient is quite different than asking questions and 
offering to help.  And yes, he did say he could help, but a vague offer 
of help is less useful than saying, for example, "maybe an IRC channel 
would help?  I could set that up and manage it if that would be of use".

Instead of just musing about that as a possibility.  Sure, it's a 
possibility.  Who does he think is going to say "yeah, I've got time for 
that".  Be part of the solution.

>> I don't see anyone else bitching and complaining about the state of
>> development and throwing blame around.
> 
> Would it help if they did?
> Does it matter that jr IS?
> I mean, sometimes it's just a matter of damned if you do, and damned if
> you don't.
> We can discuss 1. people, 2. events, or 3. IDEAS.
> We can leave jr completely out of this, and still address the issues he
> raises.

Certainly. Some of the issues he raises have merit, certainly.  Being a 
dick about how he raises them makes it a lot less likely he's going to 
get answers.

It is, contrary to seemingly popular opinion, possible to raise questions 
and concerns without being a dick about it.  People do it literally every 
single day.

>> .... putting together a laundry list of complaints isn't really a great
>> way to motivate people to do what you want them to do.
> 
> No, but the 12-steppers would say that the first step to fixing things
> is recognizing that you have a problem.   Whether you like they way they
> tell you or not is - from a POV-Ray development standpoint - irrelevant.

Presentation is important - if you want to be heard, present in a way 
that gets people to listen.

Make people defensive, and you're not likely to affect change.

Unless we're talking about a violent overthrow of the pov-ray project.

> There have been plenty of people here, over the years, who have shoved
> my nose in the pile of code that I've deposited on the carpet, and
> metaphorically beat me with the rolled up newspaper until the answers
> began to glimmer through the thinner parts of my thick skull.
> Polite?  Tactful?  Probably not.
> Effective?   Seemed to be.
> I've made it this far, and don't tend to ask _as many_ completely
> idiotic questions.

Which is fine for you.  Ever wonder how it would have worked out if 
people had treated you with respect instead?  I know which I prefer.

>> It's one thing to ask for an update and to be polite about it.  You've
>> been anything but.  I've known Chris for a very long time, and while
>> he's being too nice to say "hey, you're being a dick about this", I
>> don't appreciate people being dicks to my friends.
> 
> Maybe he's "being a dick", and maybe he's not.

No, he's being a dick.  No question about it in my mind.

> Maybe he's old and cranky and cantankerous, and having a bad blood-sugar
> day, or it's hot and muggy, and he ran out of both coffee and patience.

Conversation's been going on for 19 days, and his attitude hasn't 
changed.  This isn't a one-off, and he's not apologised for being rude, 
other than the initial warning (which means he *knew* he was being a 
dick, and didn't care enough to rewrite his questions so he wouldn't need 
the disclaimer).

> But he is being assertive and trying to keep this on the front burner.
> If he was a boss or a supervisor (whose underlings generally consider
> them dicks) he'd "just be doing his job."

I am a boss/supervisor, and I can tell you, that is not a great way to 
motivate people if you want them to be loyal to you.

> Sooner or later, someone is going to come by with a sword and take a
> mighty swing at the Gordian Knot.
> It seems to me that jr might simply be willing to volunteer to be the
> "lightning rod" that others aren't willing to be.
> A rule of thumb in complaints and customer service is that for every
> complaint, there are 300 others just like it that haven't been
> communicated.

And if he had simply started by saying "I have some questions about the 
status of the project" and then laid them out without being a dick about 
it, we could've had a productive discussion.

Instead, he was a dick about it, and didn't get answers.  Gee, I wonder 
why?  Could it be that the people who could provide him with answers 
didn't want a second round of being publicly berated by someone who 
"cares about the project" - but not enough to be respectful to the people 
actually in charge of the project?  I know for me, if I were volunteering 
my time to run a project and had not had the time to do it, the last 
thing that would motivate me to respond would be someone referring to me 
as the "ill head", or telling me to pull my thumb out of my ass and DO 
SOMETHING.

I'd be much more inclined to tell them to take a long walk off a short 
pier (and that would have been ME being polite about it).

>> I didn't see you step up in the past 13 years after Lutz handed off
>> Moray to the POV-Ray project and say "how can I help facilitate getting
>> this code reviewed and made available?".
> 
> My own impression of the state of that was: "we're not allowed to have
> the code", which we'd need to do, to see / review it - because it
> proprietary or whatever - and so it's kind of a catch-22.

Yes, that's pretty much where I was as well in my understanding - that 
there were legal issues.  The code was (to my knowledge, based on public 
info) turned over, but that it needed a scrub before it could be made 
public.

Since there are legal issues involved, a lawyer would probably need to be 
involved at some point.

>> If you have too delicate a disposition to be called out when you're
>> being a jerk, perhaps you should just go away.  At least be adult
>> enough to own the fact that you have all the tact of a brick through a
>> window.
> 
> Regardless of his level of impatience or tact, I would respectfully
> submit that the issues raised still stand on their own, and so perhaps
> we can pretend that Princess Penelope Petunia batted her eyelashes and
> curtsied while demurely asking that a teensy favor of hers be granted.

No, he needs to understand that being rude is not acceptable.

That doesn't mean we can't talk about the issues he raises.  Just that he 
needs to acknowledge his lack of tact.

> Also, in all fairness, he / we were promised an answer/response, and jr
> seems to be abiding by the Russian proverb - an admonition to "trust,
> but verify."

I await those answers as well.  Patiently.  Life right now is not exactly 
straightforward for a lot of people, and we don't know if Chris or others 
whom we're waiting on have had other priorities take over.

> The world is full of plenty of dicks who don't want to answer questions
> "because of the tone that they were asked in", even when it's in every
> way proper to hold them accountable.  Damned citizen taxpayers being
> jerks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99IeGqIIHj4
> 
> So - let's not be THAT way either.

Accountability in open development projects is a bit different than in 
the business world.  I'm sure, though, that you're aware of that.

> 
> Now, ruffled feathers or not, there are still some of us sitting out
> here in the Peanut Gallery who are interested in answers, information,
> history, opinions, and other levels and forms of discussion on the
> topics raised about POV-Ray, and Moray.
> 
> Please, and a preemptive Thank You.

As I said, I'm interested as well in the answers to these questions.  
Were I able to help out, I'd be asking similar questions, but I know what 
my life is like, and I try not to presume about what others' lives entail 
in order to fulfill my needs.

It seems that these questions could all be asked with a modicum of 
respect, and that's all I'm suggesting here.  It's possible to ask hard 
questions without being an ass about it.



-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

Post a reply to this message

On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 19:39:05 -0400, jr wrote:

> Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>> On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 17:41:25 -0400, jr wrote:
>> ...
>> > there you go again, "you don't get to dictate..".  what makes you
>> > think I am trying to tell anyone how to their life?
>>
>> The fact that you're bitching about stagnation in development, and
>> essentially trying to order people to "get with the program and get
>> some work done" (I know, not a direct quote - this is how you're coming
>> across).
> 
> stagnation, yes, and not confined to development.  and yes, I aired my
> "perceived grievances".

You engaged in personal attacks against the leaders of the project.  It 
was unnecessary.

>> ...
>> >> > (for some reason everybody seems real .. coy when talk of Moray
>> >> > looms)
>> >>
>> >> Hey, I'd like to see Moray come back to life as well.  But I can't
>> >> contribute to it, and I sure as hell am not going to criticize
>> >> people who have their own busy lives to live for not doing something
>> >> that I'm not willing or able to step up and contribute to.
>> >
>> > eg had the source been put some place public, like the wiki, or even
>> > github, more than just a select few could have at least have a look
>> > at the .. task at hand.
>>
>> And if you read a little about the history, you'd know that the code
>> *can't* be published publicly because there is proprietary code that
>> needs to be scrubbed.
> 
> _parts_ of the code.  no reason why the remainder could not have been
> worked on,
> and no reason why a functional specification of the proprietary code
> could not have been published.

Not knowing what the code looks like, I couldn't begin to guess how much 
of the code could be shared and how much couldn't.

Could you?

> and no, personally I could not contribute to a C++ code base, however,
> I, as I'm sure are others, would be prepared to contribute via some type
> of subscription model, to fund the odd "journey man", for instance.

So maybe suggest that rather than assuming that people are acting 
maliciously in order to deprive you of access to software you enjoy using.

>> > surely, whether you personally or someone else with access, could
>> > have sometime in the past couple of years or so, added an item re the
>> > 3.8.0 alphas?  (I mean, seriously, how many minutes would one need
>> > writing ~150 words?)
>>
>> You're making assumptions about my role within the team that simply
>> aren't true.
> 
> I assume that, even in a small team of volunteers (and even if all of
> those volunteers were single parents), within a time frame of a good two
> years, _someone_ will find five minutes to  write a piece, and a further
> five minutes to update the website, to "announce" the 3.8.0 alpha(s). 
> are you telling me I'm (completely) wrong?

I'm telling you that you have no knowledge of what is going on in 
peoples' lives.  Being a dick in your inquiries is not exactly going to 
encourage people to give you the answers you want.

Or even, really, to answer you at all.

Ever hear the phrase "you attract more bees with honey than vinegar"?  
That applies.

"Hey, Chris, and POV-Team - I'm interested in knowing what's going on 
with both POV-Ray and Moray.  I'd like to contribute in some way, but am 
not sure how I can.  Can you suggest ways I can help, or things I might 
do to help revive the project?"

Much better than a laundry list of grievances and complaints, telling 
people to "pull their thumbs out of their ..." and describing the project 
in the way in which you did.

>> That's not "enquiring about Moray and what's happening" - that's
>> whining,
>> plain and simple.
> 
> rant, whining, same thing.  as advertised.  I've addressed "Moray"
> above, and see nothing wrong with .. venting frustration when "things
> get kicked in the long grass" for years on end.

Then you fail to understand even the most basic human interaction if you 
expected anything more than a "fine, screw you" response.

>> I have been a member of this community for decades.  Chris and I had a
>> really nice reminiscence about the early days on CompuServe a few years
>> back.  I would love to see this code thrive, but I know my own
>> limitations, and I understand that people get busy and their priorities
>> in life shift.  The last thing that's needed is someone coming in here
>> stirring shit under the guise of "I'm doing this because I love this
>> software" without offering concrete ways in which they might be able to
>> help.
> 
> so where then is the wiki or wherever page which lists the things "to
> do"? where is the out-reach to community asking for specific help on
> this or that? in order to offer help, it would help (pun intended) to
> know of specific outstanding tasks/issues.  can you even point to any ng
> post in the last, uh, four years or so, where you, or a member of the
> mysterious TAG, has asked for help with anything?

Maybe ask the project leadership that question, respectfully.

I'm not part of the "mysterious TAG" - and am not in a position to ask 
for help with anything on behalf of the project.  I'm another end user, 
just like you.  I just happened to help out briefly with getting the Wiki 
set up.

You again are attributing a role to me which I do not hold, and never 
have held.

Try just asking the project leadership how you can help.  Politely, 
stating what you think you might be able to help with (your rant has some 
good suggestions in it where maybe you COULD help).

>> You want things to improve, start by looking over your rant and pick
>> out a few things you think you might be able to help with, and then
>> instead of talking about how "the head is ill", offer specific ways in
>> which you might help.  Maybe that's running an IRC channel and helping
>> promote it. Maybe it's helping do link checks to ensure that links that
>> are broken don't remain so.
> 
> just seeing that news-which-isn't section of the website suggests that
> dead links, for example, if reported, would be addressed with the same
> .. alacrity? (if no one in the whole POV-Ray "team" found time in the
> last two years to write a 3.8.0 item, what chance they'd find time
> updating the links section?)

Well, you certainly could ask how you can help with actually updating the 
links.  But you're so keen to see problems, you're not apparently willing 
to look for ways in which you could be part of the solution.  I'm not 
about to do your thinking for you.

> as for the "head is ill" analogy, I think that the talk posted by ingo
> made good points about how "maintainers" can create environments where
> cooperation is productive; part of it is communicating the "broad brush
> strokes", and I see no evidence of even that.
> 
> (and if I had the technical know-how to set up and maintain an IRC
> channel, for instance, don't you think I'd have one on the go already?)

It seems clear that you wouldn't even take the time to learn, given that 
you're not even willing to consider how you might help (the one question 
about how you could help notwithstanding).  You just want to complain.  
You raise some good questions, in very poor form.

>> But what you posted to try to elicit a response?  Completely useless,
>> pointless, and downright rude.
> 
> not sure about "pointless", unless you're happy with the .. status quo,
> as to "completely useless", likely, that's the thing about "inertia". 
> and rudeness, well, my rant was written to provoke a (long overdue, imo)
> look at the "now" -- where does POV-Ray go from here.  so far I hear a
> lot of criticism in response to my critique, but not a single real
> answer.  (the whole "atmosphere" strikes me as one like a big family
> gathering, when a child asks "where's uncle X?" and every adult looks at
> one another, stricken faces, and then one will give an "answer" that
> isn't any)

Not happy with the status quo; not in a position to demand that others do 
something, and not in a position to pitch in myself.

If you want answers, try being polite to the people you want answers 
from.  *Genuinely* polite.  Considerate.  Thoughtful.

And consider that other people are dealing with things in their lives 
that you have no idea about, nor are you entitled to know about, so if 
you don't get an answer, don't assume malice, assume it's because people 
genuinely have busy lives.


-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

Post a reply to this message

ok so it seems I'm not quick enough for some. This is because I was
taking the time to communicate with enough people to be sure that I
could present a clear set of facts that correctly reflect the current
situation, as giving out wrong information is worse than saying nothing
at all.

whatever. I'll keep this short and to the point.

internal discussions showed that we don't currently have the manpower to
release 3.8 in a form that meets our past standards for stability and
backwards compatibility. I also made the decision that I would step back
from managing releases and ask someone else to handle that. I see my
role, after 25 years of doing this, as more administrative with the
following caveat:

I have been involved with POV since version 1 and worked with most of
the original authors - people who I have great respect for and who
surpass me in many respects. Collectively there have been tens of
thousands of hours put into this project and it has achieved a
reputation for quality and stability. I will NOT stand by and allow a
3.x release out that does not meet that same standard and if I do so I
will be letting them all down. This is a responsibility I take seriously
and I will not relent.

As long as 3.7 continues to operate as designed on modern operating
systems and CPU's it's not broken and there is no pressing need to
replace it. Yes I'd like to see 3.8 out. Yes we need help to do so. I
had decided to move development discussions to one of these groups so it
is in public and ask for assistance from users; in particular as no-one
in the current team is able to take on the job of managing the release I
was going to ask for volunteers from here.

I was prepared to ignore the negative and insulting tone of many posts
in this thread for the benefit of the project but this is enough, as it
has reminded me of one of the reasons I dislike managing open-source
projects: settling the squabbles and disagreements between contributors.
No matter whose side I take and for whatever reason someone will be
unhappy and I'll be the 'bad guy'. Looking at what I see expressed here
just reminds me I'm in for a heap more of this shit and at almost 60
years old I've had enough.

*IF* I find someone who is qualified to lead the release I'll happily
hand that of to them (and anyone reading this who thinks they are and
who know me well enough to know I'd consider them is invited to email -
you don't need to be a C++ developer).

As for the website: again I was going to post a longer explanation but
I'll simply say the box it's running on is 15 years old, on its last
legs, difficult to manage/upgrade as it's in the US and I'm not and no
longer has a working IPKVM, and does not run a CMS to speak of. I'm
loath to touch it in any meaningful way until I have it replaced. I have
recently spent several thousand dollars bringing fiber into my office
and purchasing some proper server hardware to serve as a complete
replacement and at THAT point with a real CMS and up-to-date software I
would be asking for assistance in managing the content, but not before.

And before anyone asks "why not a VM in the cloud", (a) I'm old-school
and prefer real hardware, and (b) you guys wanted to keep the NNTP
server and there's no way that software (which was built for FreeBSD v4)
will run on anything modern. I will have to make special arrangements to
keep it working on a separate machine.

Finally, about Moray: some points are valid. I wish I'd gotten it out
before now. However the source still needs auditing. Over the years I'd
had volunteers work on it (then give up) and even hired a dev once (who
then ghosted me). It's working OK I think and I was in communication
with Lutz as recently as a few months ago about finishing off
integration (we both decided we don't do enough C++ anymore to handle it
ourselves, though it's likely I could if I really wanted to). FWIW in
case anyone cares Lutz has recently added STL import/export.

I was also considering handing the source off to a volunteer to audit,
sort out some library issues, and generally polish it if they were
willing: if a reader considers they are qualified and will actually
FINISH the job please contact me and we'll talk about it. But I want to
make one thing clear to those who seem to think that I somehow 'owe' the
community a Moray release. Moray was NOT 'given' to the POV-Ray project.
I purchased it from the author. It's my property and while I have stated
I will release it under an open-source license up and until the time I
do I would ask you treat this matter with the same respect as you would
have treated it if it were still shareware owned by Lutz - you wouldn't
write him and bitch about him not releasing the source or making it
free, so don't do it to me.

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On 21.07.2020 22:31, Jim Henderson wrote:
> The world doesn't revolve around your wants and desires, and putting
> together a laundry list of complaints isn't really a great way to
> motivate people to do what you want them to do.

And this really is one of the most annoying problems with open source 
software. The endless complaints from people who will never contribute. 
It wears practically everybody down over the years. As other projects 
have shown even those that do "get paid" for enduring it.

Thorsten

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On 22.07.2020 01:39, jr wrote:
>> And if you read a little about the history, you'd know that the code
>> *can't*  be published publicly because there is proprietary code that
>> needs to be scrubbed.
 >
> _parts_  of the code.  no reason why the remainder could not have been worked on,
> and no reason why a functional specification of the proprietary code could not
> have been published.

And that specification comes out of thin air? And the splitting of the 
code between proprietary and available for publication comes out of thin 
air, too? - The answer is simple: No and no.

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On 7/22/20 9:07 AM, Thorsten wrote:
> On 21.07.2020 22:31, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> The world doesn't revolve around your wants and desires, and putting
>> together a laundry list of complaints isn't really a great way to
>> motivate people to do what you want them to do.
> 
> And this really is one of the most annoying problems with open source 
> software. The endless complaints from people who will never contribute. 
> It wears practically everybody down over the years. As other projects 
> have shown even those that do "get paid" for enduring it.

yup

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On 22.07.2020 00:38, Bald Eagle wrote:
> My own impression of the state of that was: "we're not allowed to have the
> code", which we'd need to do, to see / review it - because it proprietary or
> whatever - and so it's kind of a catch-22.

In order to even get it to compile again, Lutz had to do the conversion 
to Visual C(++) 2010. Various people have had access to the code over 
time because they volunteered to take a look or were/are part of the 
POV-Team. This includes me (I actually still have access because I have 
a local copy and always had access to the perforce server we used before 
github).

The code is in a fairly good state, but it is written for a really not 
very standard-compliant old Visual C, using MFC, and to make matters 
worse using really "old" ways of doing things in the Windows GUI world. 
What many, many users do not realise is how bad the Win32 GUI 
programming was actually broken by Microsoft, and how many toolkits, 
libraries, and abstraction one had to throw over it to make a program 
like Moray possible.

So as long as Moray was commercial, you could just buy a license to such 
code, in particular the whole toolbar in Moray, integrate and modify 
said code under that license, and distribute it in binary form. So far, 
so good. But it does not get you anywhere if you have to convert 
commercial code to open source. Then you actually, for the sake of 
copyright law (and common sense), have to check where that code went and 
if you didn't move things here or there. Then you have to take it out, 
and do a clean room rewrite, or actually replace it with something current.

Want an estimate? - It would take 4-5 month full-time (but I am not 
offering full-time), 40h/week and my going rate is 120 Euro/hour (plus 
VAT) for freelance work*.

Thorsten


* After all taxes, rent, insurance, etc about 40% of that get into one's 
pocket in Germany, btw.

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On Wed, 22 Jul 2020 15:07:38 +0200, Thorsten wrote:

> On 21.07.2020 22:31, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> The world doesn't revolve around your wants and desires, and putting
>> together a laundry list of complaints isn't really a great way to
>> motivate people to do what you want them to do.
> 
> And this really is one of the most annoying problems with open source
> software. The endless complaints from people who will never contribute.
> It wears practically everybody down over the years. As other projects
> have shown even those that do "get paid" for enduring it.

Yup, and that sense of "entitlement" (which is entirely undeserved) that 
some users have that the project managers/developers *owe* the users 
anything.

People who work on code for free do it because it gives them joy and is 
fun.  Dealing with a userbase of complainers and whiners (and I'm not 
meaning to say the entire userbase of POV-Ray is like this; all it takes 
is a few entitled loudmouthed jerks to ruin it for everyone; I know users 
who have left because of a few toxic people in the community) isn't fun.  
As we've seen from Chris' reply, that is just shitty to deal with, and 
not fun.  Why would *anyone* opt to put up with that kind of bullshit if 
they had the choice?

In a nutshell, we (the users) are owed exactly *nothing* from Chris or 
the development team.  He has managed this project for 25 years (by his 
own reckoning; I'd have said closer to 30 by my own), and *we* owe *him* 
some gratitude for what he has done.

It's rare for *anyone* to stick with a single development project for 
that long, much less retain a passion for it.

The same goes for Moray (which I see he explained in very clear terms).  
He *purchased* the codebase from Lutz.  He owns it, and it's his to do 
with as he pleases.

As for me:  I've offered to step up and help out with content work when 
he gets the CMS ready to go.  I can't (and won't) do it alone - my time 
is *extremely limited*.  I'll start a separate discussion nearer the time 
Chris and I work out that that transition can happen, and I'll be 
expecting to have some folks from the community step up to help out.  If 
that doesn't happen, the job will take longer or it simply won't get 
done. Anyone who wants to bitch at me for the speed with which it isn't 
happening will be welcome to get your hands dirty and dig in and help - 
otherwise, I'll be telling you in no uncertain terms where you can shove 
your complaints.  To paraphrase Chris, I'm nearly 50 years old myself, 
and I don't have time or energy for dealing with the whining self-
entitled jerks who think that they are owed *anything* by the people 
doing the actual work. You want the project to have a future?  Pitch in 
and help out.

-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

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hi,

Chris Cason <del### [at] deletethistoopovrayorg> wrote:
> ok so it seems I'm not quick enough for some. This is because I was
> taking the time to communicate with enough people to be sure that I
> could present a clear set of facts that correctly reflect the current
> situation, as giving out wrong information is worse than saying nothing
> at all.

the "some" refers to me, I take it.  (I do prefer directness, always.  :-))

well I waited a full working week plus one day for you to follow up.  just a
one-line reminder (like you wrote on the 12th) would have made a difference.

(and the irony is, had no one replied to my post to TdG (21st), the thread would
have stopped there and then.  with "misgivings", for sure, but ended)

> whatever. I'll keep this short and to the point.
> ...
> I was prepared to ignore the negative and insulting tone of many posts
> in this thread for the benefit of the project but this is enough, as it
> has reminded me of one of the reasons I dislike managing open-source
> projects: settling the squabbles and disagreements between contributors.
> No matter whose side I take and for whatever reason someone will be
> unhappy and I'll be the 'bad guy'.  ...

that goes with the territory though, the person "wearing the hat" takes the
flak.  (but I can see that 25 years take their toll)

> ...
> As for the website: again I was going to post a longer explanation but
> I'll simply say the box it's running on is 15 years old, on its last
> legs, difficult to manage/upgrade as it's in the US and I'm not and no
> longer has a working IPKVM, and does not run a CMS to speak of. I'm
> loath to touch it in any meaningful way until I have it replaced.  ...

good to know, and does explain the not-news section and more.

> ...
> Finally, about Moray: some points are valid. I wish I'd gotten it out
> before now. However the source still needs auditing. Over the years I'd
> had volunteers work on it (then give up) and even hired a dev once (who
> then ghosted me). It's working OK I think and I was in communication
> with Lutz as recently as a few months ago about finishing off
> integration (we both decided we don't do enough C++ anymore to handle it
> ourselves, though it's likely I could if I really wanted to). FWIW in
> case anyone cares Lutz has recently added STL import/export.
>
> I was also considering handing the source off to a volunteer to audit,
> sort out some library issues, and generally polish it if they were
> willing: if a reader considers they are qualified and will actually
> FINISH the job please contact me and we'll talk about it.

seems a shame that the conversion of Moray[*] has turned into a "never-ending
story".

[*] have never used it, but, based on others's opinions, had hopes to see a
modeller for GNU/Linux which works hand-in-glove with POV-Ray.

> But I want to
> make one thing clear to those who seem to think that I somehow 'owe' the
> community a Moray release. Moray was NOT 'given' to the POV-Ray project.
> I purchased it from the author. It's my property and while I have stated
> I will release it under an open-source license up and until the time I
> do I would ask you treat this matter with the same respect as you would
> have treated it if it were still shareware owned by Lutz - you wouldn't
> write him and bitch about him not releasing the source or making it
> free, so don't do it to me.

I can only speak for myself, but paying for a tool one wants to use is
expected/normal.

(and that extends, of course.  I remember mention of willingness to help with
POV-Ray[*] by taking out subscription and or purchasing content, in previous
threads in the newsgroups, but you probably did not read those.
[*] and yes, not being able to offer worthwhile _practical_ help and being
reduced to offering money does .. not feel very good)

but anyway, thank you for providing a little insight wrt near future.


regards, jr.

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