Invisible wrote:
> being flamed by Darren for thinking that databases are worth using,

Huh??  I'm ... pretty sure I never meant to imply they aren't.

> Logically, which of these is most likely to be correct?

Both, really. :-)

> I could sit here complaining about how everybody seems to have it in for 
> me. Or I could just face up to the fact that I UPSET PEOPLE, and ask 
> myself why...

Or you could believe maybe you're a bit sensitive and grouping in the people 
who like you with the people who don't, because they're all on the same side 
of the screen.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Ouch ouch ouch!"
   "What's wrong? Noodles too hot?"
   "No, I have Chopstick Tunnel Syndrome."

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Invisible wrote:
> When somebody like that tells you you're an idiot, you sit up and take notice.

I don't think you're an idiot. I get a bit frustrated with people when they 
swallow marketing FUD that's trivially disprovable, or when they 
overgeneralize and then insist that the overgeneralization applies in every 
situation.  I think those are the two things online that bug me, and only 
coming from people I view as intelligent and educable. (I know that last bit 
sounds rather hubric, but I don't feel like coming up with a better word 
right now. :-)

You're not an idiot, and I never thought you were.

> personally must be doing something very wrong to attract this kind of 
> negative attention.

My guess is you're asking hard questions that make the Haskell experts feel 
like they've been wasting their time.  Hard questions like "why does C add 
this up in 2 seconds and Haskell takes 7 minutes?"

I've found a good technique is to admit upfront it's probably something 
you're doing wrong yourself, and ask for help fixing it, like "this program 
is much slower than an interative approach - what am I doing wrong that 
makes it so slow?"

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Ouch ouch ouch!"
   "What's wrong? Noodles too hot?"
   "No, I have Chopstick Tunnel Syndrome."

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Warp wrote:
>   I'm not always right. Making yourself look smarter than you really are
> is an art.

That too! You're too honest sometimes, Andrew. I got my MS in BS a long time 
ago.

>   Of course when someone more knowledgeable about the subject calls your
> bluff, it can be really embarrassing. Admitting that you were wrong can
> be really difficult.

Actually, I find it rather cathartic. It has the drawback that it can reduce 
your street-cred in the short term, but if you interact with people for a 
while, it actually helps, because people will remember you're willing to 
admit you're wrong when you really were.

>   (Of course the same is true for C++ and probably all languages.

The best ones in that regard let you separate out the specification and the 
performance aspects into two separate jobs. SQL is very good at this, for 
example.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Ouch ouch ouch!"
   "What's wrong? Noodles too hot?"
   "No, I have Chopstick Tunnel Syndrome."

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Chambers wrote:
> If you want efficient, go for C.  There's a reason it's still around, 
> despite C++ being 20 years old.

/Darren, cooking some popcorn and sitting back to watch Warp's response. ;-)

> Maybe I'm just cynical, but unfortunately my experience backs up 
> humanity's dark side :(

Speaking as an educated person, I have to agree with this one.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Ouch ouch ouch!"
   "What's wrong? Noodles too hot?"
   "No, I have Chopstick Tunnel Syndrome."

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Darren New wrote:
> Invisible wrote:
>> For breakfast?
> 
> o.O
> 
> You win.

Actually, they're rather good on toast.

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>> being flamed by Darren for thinking that databases are worth using,
> 
> Huh??  I'm ... pretty sure I never meant to imply they aren't.

"Right, sure. DBMS is important. That's why Google and Amazon don't 
bother with them."

Implications seems pretty clear to me...

>> I could sit here complaining about how everybody seems to have it in 
>> for me. Or I could just face up to the fact that I UPSET PEOPLE, and 
>> ask myself why...
> 
> Or you could believe maybe you're a bit sensitive and grouping in the 
> people who like you with the people who don't, because they're all on 
> the same side of the screen.

The Haskell mailing list is an unmoderated list.

So... why is it that every time I post a message there, I get an 
autoreply saying "your post to Haskell has been held for moderation", 
and 80% of the time the post never appears at all?

*Clearly* I have done something to upset somebody... Don's comments were 
particularly cutting:

"Your post qualifies as somewhere between internet prank and internet 
troll."

"After 3 years of this, I don't hold out much hope."

etc.

They make me sound like a curse or something. Jesus, am I really that 
hated??

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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Fredrik Eriksson wrote:

> Because you *are* causing disruption. You continue to question things 
> the old-timers have taken for granted for so long. Your kind will lead 
> the way into the future, stepping over their tired old corpses on the way.
> 
> Keep it up.

Oh I WISH!

As if my misguided ramblings will ever lead the way to the future... 
Besides, plenty of people ask questions way dumber then me, and they 
don't get flamed. So it's clearly not the actual questions which are the 
problem.

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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>> Warp seems to access the Internet only to tell me I've mis-spelt things.
> 
> lol!  That is, honestly, one of the funniest things I've read in a long 
> time :)  Trust me, you're not THAT important to him!

Glad my existence is not a *total* waste of oxygen. :-P

>> It seems like only a few months ago I started learning Haskell, but the
>> other day I found an assay about it, written by me, dated 2004. I've
>> been using this thing for *years*! And during all that time, Warp keeps
>> telling me that it's hopelessly inefficient, and I keep saying it isn't.
> 
> If you want efficient, go for C.  There's a reason it's still around, 
> despite C++ being 20 years old.
> 
> Haskell isn't C.  It's not trying to be, either.

As far as Warp is concerned, "it's not efficient == it's not worth using".

>> Yet again, the Haskell mailing lists collectively have more PhDs than
>> you can shake a stick at.
> 
> Listen to me: the more educated you are, the more likely you are to be 
> an asshole - ESPECIALLY to people who either don't understand your point 
> of view, or (even worse) people who don't agree with you.
> 
> If you show up on their mailing list, asking questions about why things 
> are the way they are, you're likely to piss them off just because you 
> have good questions.  You're not a "yes" man, you're not a fawning 
> sycophant, and that makes your intelligence a threat to their 
> established positions of power.

I'd agree with you - except that I'm the *only* person receiving this 
negative reaction. All the other newbies ask questions and get answers 
and so on. Only I seem to get flamed every few months.

>> If it was just one person who disliked me, it probably wouldn't bother
>> me. But when so many otherwise rational, intelligent people all say
>> you're stupid... eventually it starts to sink in.
> 
> What about when so many otherwise rational, intelligent people all say 
> you're smart & they like you?  Who are going to listen to?

They're generally not very vocal.

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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>> If you want efficient, go for C.  There's a reason it's still around, 
>> despite C++ being 20 years old.
> 
> /Darren, cooking some popcorn and sitting back to watch Warp's response. 
> ;-)

Oh please, he probably won't even read it.

>> Maybe I'm just cynical, but unfortunately my experience backs up 
>> humanity's dark side :(
> 
> Speaking as an educated person, I have to agree with this one.

You're an asshole, you know that? :-P

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> You're an asshole, you know that? :-P

/Darren does the Jim Carrey asshole dance!  \o/

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Ouch ouch ouch!"
   "What's wrong? Noodles too hot?"
   "No, I have Chopstick Tunnel Syndrome."

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