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On Mon, 16 Feb 2009 08:59:26 -0600, Mike Raiford <"m[raiford]!at"@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
>(Apologies to all of the pot-smoking hippies out there)
Accepted ;)
--
Regards
Stephen
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>> The sad thing is, over on the Haskell forum, people say that about *me*.
>
> Stop it Andrew...
>
> You're not a troll. Obviously there are more hostile groups out there
> than this one.
>
> Actually, the POV-Ray group is one of the more friendly ones I frequent.
> Only topped by a certain group of Canon users.
Well, I'm not *trying* to be a troll.
On the other hand, it seems that almost every forum I visit, I end up
rubbing somebody up the wrong way. Whether it's getting yelled at by
Warp for thinking that Haskell is a useful programming language, or
being flamed by Darren for thinking that databases are worth using, or
Haskellers telling me I'm stupid because I don't know category theory,
it seems I consistantly manage to upset somebody.
I see two possibilities:
- Everybody else on the Internet is an asshole.
- I'm an asshole.
Logically, which of these is most likely to be correct?
I could sit here complaining about how everybody seems to have it in for
me. Or I could just face up to the fact that I UPSET PEOPLE, and ask
myself why...
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Invisible wrote:
> - Everybody else on the Internet is an asshole.
There are a lot of assholes out there..
> - I'm an asshole.
You're not ...
> I could sit here complaining about how everybody seems to have it in for
> me. Or I could just face up to the fact that I UPSET PEOPLE, and ask
> myself why...
You only really bother me when you're so down on yourself. I must have
missed the database discussion involving Darren, but I don't think
you're the only person to be flamed by Warp (I think I've had a run-in
with him at some point in the past) so it's not necessarily you.
A lot of internet groups tend to be a bit cliquish, and I suspect that's
what is happening at the Haskell group.
--
~Mike
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"Stephen" <mcavoysAT@aolDOTcom> wrote in message
news:a30jp41klte04ub85016o8u0s0fe4khm85@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 16 Feb 2009 08:59:26 -0600, Mike Raiford
> <"m[raiford]!at"@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>(Apologies to all of the pot-smoking hippies out there)
>
> Accepted ;)
hahaha =====~ (puff)
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Slime escreveu:
>>> Also, posting an image not made by you (nor with povray), in a context
>>> where it gives the incorrect impression that you had made it (iow.
>>> plagiarizing), goes beyond a critical line.
>> hahahah
>>
>> Have you EVER loved anyone? Ever cared for anyone?
>> More importantly has anyone ever cared for you?
>
> What on earth do these ridiculous questions have to do with the point he
> made?
>
> Why do we keep wasting time with this troll?
Yes, he could try arguing with this one:
news://freenews.netfront.net:119/f1170cf7-17d9-463c-8561-39aee0411e46@i20g2000prf.googlegroups.com
I actually replied until noticing he's talking to himself.
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>> - Everybody else on the Internet is an asshole.
>
> There are a lot of assholes out there..
>
>> - I'm an asshole.
>
> You're not ...
If it was just one person who thinks I'm an idiot, I probably wouldn't
care too much. But when several of the experts you look up to all
unanimously agree, it's quite upsetting.
>> I could sit here complaining about how everybody seems to have it in
>> for me. Or I could just face up to the fact that I UPSET PEOPLE, and
>> ask myself why...
>
> You only really bother me when you're so down on yourself. I must have
> missed the database discussion involving Darren, but I don't think
> you're the only person to be flamed by Warp (I think I've had a run-in
> with him at some point in the past) so it's not necessarily you.
>
> A lot of internet groups tend to be a bit cliquish, and I suspect that's
> what is happening at the Haskell group.
[IIRC, the database debate happened on this server's haskell group,
which few people know exists.]
Warp seems to access the Internet only to tell me I've mis-spelt things.
(As if I couldn't have guessed that. My inability to spell is legend.)
To be honest, that doesn't really bother me. Mostly.
OTOH, Warp is clearly a God-like programmer, and when He says something
about programming, he's usually right. (Though not always.) Go ask him
what the most efficient way to implement a Huffman tree in C++ is; I bet
he knows.
It seems like only a few months ago I started learning Haskell, but the
other day I found an assay about it, written by me, dated 2004. I've
been using this thing for *years*! And during all that time, Warp keeps
telling me that it's hopelessly inefficient, and I keep saying it isn't.
It got to the point where I'd see a post from Warp saying that Haskell
sucks because of X, and I'd spent half an hour trying to come up with a
reason why X is false. It ceased to be about the truth, and about
wanting to be right. I *wanted* Haskell to be the best.
But wanting something to be true doesn't make it true. And,
unfortunately for me, Warp is right, as usual. Haskell sucks. And no
amount of words from me is going to change it. My pride and joy actually
sucks, and I can't do anything about it.
Similarly, Darren is obviously an expert when it comes to computer
theory. I have no idea what the hell a recursively enumerable set is,
but I bet Darren does. When somebody like that tells you you're an
idiot, you sit up and take notice.
Yet again, the Haskell mailing lists collectively have more PhDs than
you can shake a stick at. There are people there who know the difference
between an endomorphism and an epimorphism, and people who actually
comprehend the Curry-Howard isomorphism. And, almost unanimously, they
all regard me as some kind of troll. They think I'm there just to cause
disruption.
Nobody else on the forum gets singled out as a troll. (Except for that
one guy who really *is* a troll!) Lots of other people, many of them
beginners like myself, manage to coexist quite happily. So clearly I
personally must be doing something very wrong to attract this kind of
negative attention.
If it was just one person who disliked me, it probably wouldn't bother
me. But when so many otherwise rational, intelligent people all say
you're stupid... eventually it starts to sink in.
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Invisible wrote:
>
> OTOH, Warp is clearly a God-like programmer, and when He says something
> about programming, he's usually right. (Though not always.) Go ask him
> what the most efficient way to implement a Huffman tree in C++ is; I bet
> he knows.
>
And thats where my run-ins with Warp usually occur. I say something
misguided about programming and he jumps in. That's just Warp.
> Similarly, Darren is obviously an expert when it comes to computer
> theory. I have no idea what the hell a recursively enumerable set is,
> but I bet Darren does. When somebody like that tells you you're an
> idiot, you sit up and take notice.
Darren? Really?
FWIW, I've seen Darren and Warp really have it out over C# of all
things. But yes, they both know their stuff. That doesn't mean you're
actually an idiot, though.
> Nobody else on the forum gets singled out as a troll. (Except for that
> one guy who really *is* a troll!) Lots of other people, many of them
> beginners like myself, manage to coexist quite happily. So clearly I
> personally must be doing something very wrong to attract this kind of
> negative attention.
What made them think you're a troll?
> If it was just one person who disliked me, it probably wouldn't bother
> me. But when so many otherwise rational, intelligent people all say
> you're stupid... eventually it starts to sink in.
Right. I've been smacked in the head enough on here to know to be every
careful when I post on programming topics. I'm out of my depth with some
of folks on here, and I know that.
To change the subject (sort of):
BTW, I think I'm procrastinating on the filter stuff.. Right now I'm
trying to get properly feeding a circular sound buffer data so I can try
listening in realtime.
You seem to have quite an understanding of mathematics, though, which
says a lot. You know and understand things that would make a layperson
take one look and go curl up in a corner.
--
~Mike
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>> Nobody else on the forum gets singled out as a troll. (Except for that
>> one guy who really *is* a troll!) Lots of other people, many of them
>> beginners like myself, manage to coexist quite happily. So clearly I
>> personally must be doing something very wrong to attract this kind of
>> negative attention.
>
> What made them think you're a troll?
This is of course the crucial question.
What is it about me that makes so many different people think that I'm
just an attention-seeking fool with a loud mouth who doesn't know what
he's talking about? Several different people, in unrelated forums, have
all independently come to the same conclusion. There must be a reason
for this.
> You seem to have quite an understanding of mathematics, though, which
> says a lot. You know and understand things that would make a layperson
> take one look and go curl up in a corner.
Yeah. I can do basic algebra correctly - sometimes. It seems that
somehow I extrapolated from this that I'm some kind of maths "expert".
Needless to say, delusions of grandure don't go down too well when you
meet a *real* expert.
Maybe that's what my problem is? Ideas about my station?
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Invisible escreveu:
> But wanting something to be true doesn't make it true. And,
> unfortunately for me, Warp is right, as usual. Haskell sucks. And no
> amount of words from me is going to change it. My pride and joy actually
> sucks, and I can't do anything about it.
Haskell doesn't suck. It sucks a lot less than C++, certainly. Being
slower doesn't mean it sucks. The higher-level the language and more
away from the underlying low-level metal, the better. Haskell sucks a
lot less performance-wise than most other very high-level languages.
And I still prefer Scheme, despite being much slower than Haskell... :)
> If it was just one person who disliked me, it probably wouldn't bother
> me. But when so many otherwise rational, intelligent people all say
> you're stupid... eventually it starts to sink in.
Being not as intelligent as truly intelligent people is not the same as
being stupid. Endlessly pestering such bright people over reasonably
basic stuff you still don't understand... well, that's stupid. ;)
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Invisible <voi### [at] dev null> wrote:
> Warp seems to access the Internet only to tell me I've mis-spelt things.
It's "misspelt"! ;)
> OTOH, Warp is clearly a God-like programmer, and when He says something
> about programming, he's usually right. (Though not always.) Go ask him
> what the most efficient way to implement a Huffman tree in C++ is; I bet
> he knows.
I'm not always right. Making yourself look smarter than you really are
is an art.
Of course when someone more knowledgeable about the subject calls your
bluff, it can be really embarrassing. Admitting that you were wrong can
be really difficult.
> But wanting something to be true doesn't make it true. And,
> unfortunately for me, Warp is right, as usual. Haskell sucks. And no
> amount of words from me is going to change it. My pride and joy actually
> sucks, and I can't do anything about it.
Haskell doesn't suck. The only problem I find with it is that it's not
very approachable. It's hard to learn.
It also seems that while Haskell can be used to create very efficient
programs, it often happens that some properties of the language kick you
in the groin when you try to do things in a simple way, resulting in a
very inefficient program. You really need to know the inner workings of
the language, the compiler and the libraries in order to be able to create
the efficient implementation.
(Of course the same is true for C++ and probably all languages. It's just
that Haskell seems to be often advertised as "if it compiles, it works, and
it's efficient", which doesn't seem true to me. You can often write clever
one-liners which achieve things which would need dozens of lines in other
languages, but that doesn't automatically mean the resulting program is
efficient (or even correct).)
--
- Warp
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