Tom York <alp### [at] zubenelgenubi34spcom> wrote:
> Certainly I think it's pointless to add this to
> POV 3.7, it would need a huge amount of work to get the sampling right.

  I can't understand why.

  The only difference is that instead of spawing multiple rays at each
intersection point, only one ray is spawned. The only problem is how the
results are gathered in order to produce the correct color.

> I've no idea what will and what will not slow the POV team down. How could I?

  I can develop new features for pov3.7 independently, and if they work and
I get green light from the pov-team I can add it to the codebase. Basically
no effort from the pov-team itself is required.

  Basically this kind of testing is free. It doesn't cost anyone anything
(except my own free time, of course).

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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> Vincent Le Chevalier wrote:
>> Well Scott did, and it's not all that difficult to perfect it to 
>> obtain the result you seek, i.e. to have different colors for 
>> diffusion and reflection.
> 
> As long as we're simplifying, can anyone describe what the benefit of
>  this technique is, compared to biased ray tracing? What does biased
>  ray-tracing miss that this one catches?
> 

Having had a look in the books again...

Basically, all the methods creating images by firing rays into the scene
can be thought of as attempts to evaluate a very hairy integral (the
rendering equation) using a monte-carlo approach.

To do this, paths of light inside the scene must be sampled, in a way
that makes the monte-carlo method converge when the number of samples rises.

Classical raytracing, where no diffuse rays are fired, is obviously
biased, which means that whatever the number of rays you will fire,
you'll never reach the physically correct image. That's because there is
an entire category of paths that never gets sampled, so we have no idea
of what their contribution is. For example, no path such as Light
source<->diffuse surface<->diffuse surface<->camera are ever created.

On the other hand, the picture is not noisy (statistically speaking, the
estimator has a low variance).

There are other ways for a bias to creep in. For example, if you limit
systematically the length of sampled paths to a fixed value. Russian
roulette is one of the methods to avoid such problems.

Methods such as irradiance caching, in my limited understanding, also
introduces a bias. Simply speaking, every time you try to minimize the
variance (the high frequency noise in the picture), you are in danger of
introducing a bias unless great care is taken.

The bias is not in itself something that prevents beautiful pictures. It
prevents accurate pictures. The benefit would be more of a practical
nature: since you know that the picture will eventually be physically
correct, you can use real-life parameters and trust the physics, instead
of having to adjust the algorithm themselves and being forced to include
non-physical "hacks" everywhere in your scene. In way, you can be more
straightforward and coherent. But it's slower...

That being said, I never used an unbiased renderer, so who am I to talk :-)

-- 
Vincent

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I will not try to answer point by point as it is late, maybe tomorrow... 
Nevertheless, I wanted to point out several things.

First, I don't understand completely what you are trying to do. If you 
implement an unbiased method, of course the pictures will be radically 
different. There is no way around that. If the pictures, with the exact 
same parameters, were only more grainy, but eventually converged to the 
exact same image on average, then the method would be biased...

The other problem is indeed that many material models within POV-Ray are 
physically inaccurate, so you'll be unable to even use them and still 
make sense. For example, reflection 1 transmit 1 is not realistic. 
Simply follow the light through the surface. 100% of the light should be 
transmitted, and 100% reflected? It's clearly not conservative. I 
suspect the case of your black reflective object is a bit similar.

And of course you cannot use max_trace_level because it introduces a bias...

All of this is why I was thinking that adding such capability into the 
current POV would not be a trivial matter...

-- 
Vincent

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> The other problem is indeed that many material models within POV-Ray are 
> physically inaccurate, so you'll be unable to even use them and still 
> make sense. For example, reflection 1 transmit 1 is not realistic. 
> Simply follow the light through the surface. 100% of the light should be 
> transmitted, and 100% reflected? It's clearly not conservative. I 
> suspect the case of your black reflective object is a bit similar.

How does POV-Ray behave with reflection 1, transmit 1, and conserve_energy?

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Vincent Le Chevalier <gal### [at] libertyallsurfspamfr> wrote:
> First, I don't understand completely what you are trying to do. If you 
> implement an unbiased method, of course the pictures will be radically 
> different.

  Unless I have understood something completely incorrectly, I think that
"unbiased rendering" simply means that light is not assumed to be coming
from a specific direction, but the entire space is sampled for possible
incoming light.

  Surface properties are described as BRDFs. (The advantage of unbiased
rendering is that it allows, due to its unbiased sampling nature, much
richer and complex BRDFs to be defined than traditional rendering methods.)

  Well, the phong lighting model is a perfectly valid BRDF, so I see
absolutely no reason why unbiased rendering would exclude the possibility
of using it. I don't believe that unbiased rendering would somehow limit
what kind of BRDFs you can use.

  If the phong lighting model is used as the BRDF for all surfaces the
end result should be pretty much the same using unbiased rendering than
using the traditional raytracing method (except for the possible graininess).

  The advantage, in this case, is that much more complex scenes,
traiditionally requiring enormous amounts of rays (because of ray
bifurcation and things like area lights) may render faster using single
ray paths which do not bifurcate. (This requires *much* higher antialiasing
settings, but in certain situations the overall amount of rays traced may
in fact be smaller than with the traditional raytracing method.)

> There is no way around that. If the pictures, with the exact 
> same parameters, were only more grainy, but eventually converged to the 
> exact same image on average, then the method would be biased...

  I'm more interested in the single-path-tracing than in the unbiasing.

  (Besides, I think the only difference pure unbiased rendering would do
is to make the image have global illumination, ie. what povray calls
"radiosity", especially if big area lights are used instead of point
lights.)

> The other problem is indeed that many material models within POV-Ray are 
> physically inaccurate

  I bet all BRDFs are physically inaccurate to some extent, and only
*approximate* the real thing. The phong lighting model is one approximation
among others (it might not be the best one, but it's a simple and fast one,
and often gives good results).

  I also have hard time believing that unbiased rendering would somehow
exclude "physically inaccurate" BRDFs.

> Simply follow the light through the surface. 100% of the light should be 
> transmitted, and 100% reflected? It's clearly not conservative.

  It doesn't have to be 100% physically accurate. The only thing that
matters is that it can be described as a BRDF.

> I suspect the case of your black reflective object is a bit similar.

  No, that phenomenon happens in real life. Even surfaces which do not
reflect diffusely light almost at all can have strong specular reflection
properties. That's the reason why pitch-black plastic can have bright
highlights. It has something to do with quantum mechanics or something
similar, don't remember any details.

> And of course you cannot use max_trace_level because it introduces a bias...

  Using a high-enough max_trace_level will probably not have too much
influence in the resulting image (except in cases where it would have
a significant influence in the traditional raytracing method as well).

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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Vincent Le Chevalier wrote:
> of what their contribution is. For example, no path such as Light
> source<->diffuse surface<->diffuse surface<->camera are ever created.

I see!  Thank you.

> since you know that the picture will eventually be physically
> correct, 

"Physically correct."  You keep using that word.  I do not think it 
means what you think it means.  :-)

Seriously, "physically correct" would mean it accounts for polarized 
surfaces and handles interference fringes and diffraction, and traces 
the rays of light from the light source to the camera, rather than 
starting at the camera. :-)

-- 
   Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
     Remember the good old days, when we
     used to complain about cryptography
     being export-restricted?

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> Seriously, "physically correct" would mean it accounts for polarized 
> surfaces and handles interference fringes and diffraction, and traces 
> the rays of light from the light source to the camera, rather than 
> starting at the camera. :-)
> 

OK, let's say more physically correct then ;-) I don't know, something 
that conserves energy, for a start :-)

Starting at the camera and not at the light source is no big deal to me. 
What matters is finding a path joining the light to the camera. Starting 
from the camera or the light is purely a matter of what's more practical...

-- 
Vincent

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> Vincent Le Chevalier <gal### [at] libertyallsurfspamfr> wrote:
>> First, I don't understand completely what you are trying to do. If you 
>> implement an unbiased method, of course the pictures will be radically 
>> different.
> 
>   Unless I have understood something completely incorrectly, I think that
> "unbiased rendering" simply means that light is not assumed to be coming
> from a specific direction, but the entire space is sampled for possible
> incoming light.
> 

But that means that the images should be different, no? And I mean, more 
than just noisy...

>   Well, the phong lighting model is a perfectly valid BRDF, so I see
> absolutely no reason why unbiased rendering would exclude the possibility
> of using it. I don't believe that unbiased rendering would somehow limit
> what kind of BRDFs you can use.
> 

I'm not sure about the phong model being a valid BRDF. But I don't 
remember the details so let's say it is...

>   If the phong lighting model is used as the BRDF for all surfaces the
> end result should be pretty much the same using unbiased rendering than
> using the traditional raytracing method (except for the possible graininess).
> 

Except that traditional raytracing neglects plenty of light transfers, 
which is what is making it biased in the first place. It's not even a 
question of what BRDFs are used...

>> There is no way around that. If the pictures, with the exact 
>> same parameters, were only more grainy, but eventually converged to the 
>> exact same image on average, then the method would be biased...
> 
>   I'm more interested in the single-path-tracing than in the unbiasing.
> 
>   (Besides, I think the only difference pure unbiased rendering would do
> is to make the image have global illumination, ie. what povray calls
> "radiosity", especially if big area lights are used instead of point
> lights.)
> 

Well that's a big difference, and I don't know if it's really possible 
or even desirable to make a single path if you're not looking for an 
unbiased result.

>> The other problem is indeed that many material models within POV-Ray are 
>> physically inaccurate
> 
>   I bet all BRDFs are physically inaccurate to some extent, and only
> *approximate* the real thing. The phong lighting model is one approximation
> among others (it might not be the best one, but it's a simple and fast one,
> and often gives good results).
> 

I was thinking more of your reflection 1 transmit 1 example. Energy 
conservation is still one of the basic properties of BRDFs. There is no 
way you can represent that with a BRDF. Of course all BRDFs are only 
approximations, but that does not mean that they do not have 
constraints. I guess my use of "physically accurate" is the problem here...


>> I suspect the case of your black reflective object is a bit similar.
> 
>   No, that phenomenon happens in real life. Even surfaces which do not
> reflect diffusely light almost at all can have strong specular reflection
> properties. That's the reason why pitch-black plastic can have bright
> highlights. It has something to do with quantum mechanics or something
> similar, don't remember any details.
> 

In your previous post, you said:
>   The algorithm presented above calculates the non-weighted average of
> the diffuse and specular components. This means that, for example, a
> black object cannot have a completely white highlight (because the averaging
> will make it gray), even though in real life it's perfectly possible for
> this to happen.

A black object can have a bright highlight, of course. Or rather, a 
bright reflection. In that case, you would lower diffuse_amount, to be 
able to set a higher reflection_amount.

What you cannot do is a white object with a 100% reflection on top of 
that. Because if you define that 100% of the incoming light goes in the 
specular reflection, there is nothing left to be diffused. So making the 
object white effectively means you have a dimmer highlight.

The problems in the algorithm is the colors should all be normalized. 
That way the only possiblity to have a black object is lowering its 
diffuse_amount, not setting its color to black. In current POV, you can 
do one or the other...

-- 
Vincent

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Vincent Le Chevalier <gal### [at] libertyallsurfspamfr> wrote:
> >   Unless I have understood something completely incorrectly, I think that
> > "unbiased rendering" simply means that light is not assumed to be coming
> > from a specific direction, but the entire space is sampled for possible
> > incoming light.
> > 

> But that means that the images should be different, no? And I mean, more 
> than just noisy...

  It means that the scene has global illumination. It doesn't make surfaces
more opaque.

> >   (Besides, I think the only difference pure unbiased rendering would do
> > is to make the image have global illumination, ie. what povray calls
> > "radiosity", especially if big area lights are used instead of point
> > lights.)
> > 

> Well that's a big difference

  Not that much of a difference. It doesn't make surfaces more opaque,
for instance.

>, and I don't know if it's really possible 
> or even desirable to make a single path if you're not looking for an 
> unbiased result.

  I don't believe unbiasing makes surfaces more opaque, so I don't see
how that is any relelvant.

> I was thinking more of your reflection 1 transmit 1 example. Energy 
> conservation is still one of the basic properties of BRDFs. There is no 
> way you can represent that with a BRDF. Of course all BRDFs are only 
> approximations, but that does not mean that they do not have 
> constraints. I guess my use of "physically accurate" is the problem here...

  A BRDF can take light coming from several directions and calculate how
it affects the outgoing light towards a certain direction. I don't believe
BRDFs have the requirement that these different light amounts must be
*averaged* instead of being added together.

> A black object can have a bright highlight, of course. Or rather, a 
> bright reflection. In that case, you would lower diffuse_amount, to be 
> able to set a higher reflection_amount.

  How is the program supposed to guess that you really wanted a lower
diffuse amount?

  Besides, the black object was just an example. Take a red object, with
a relatively high diffuse, and a white light source. The surface can have
white highlights even though the surface is red.

  If you average the diffuse and the specular reflection, the latter
would get a red tint.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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>   I don't believe unbiasing makes surfaces more opaque
> 

It could very well be the case. The unbiased renderer cannot allow any 
non-conservative material. If it did, it would be unable to reach a 
stable solution, because it attempts to simulate the physical system. If 
you had just one non-conservative material in real-life, the scene would 
just end up saturated with light...

So the biased renderer can handle surfaces that are perfectly 
transparent yet perfectly reflective, because it samples a limited class 
of rays that make it work. The unbiased renderer must sacrifice either 
transparency or reflectivity in order for its solution not to explode.


>   A BRDF can take light coming from several directions and calculate how
> it affects the outgoing light towards a certain direction. I don't believe
> BRDFs have the requirement that these different light amounts must be
> *averaged* instead of being added together.
> 

If you do not make an average, as more rays are traced the brightness of 
the image rises, which is not realistic. So regardless of lighting 
theory, you must do an average. It is exactly what happens in anti 
aliasing, I don't see the problem. That average, I think, stems from 
Monte-Carlo integration.

>> A black object can have a bright highlight, of course. Or rather, a 
>> bright reflection. In that case, you would lower diffuse_amount, to be 
>> able to set a higher reflection_amount.
> 
>   How is the program supposed to guess that you really wanted a lower
> diffuse amount?
> 

It does not guess, you tell it so. Because as I said, colors should be 
normalized. If you want black you have to lower the diffuse amount.

>   Besides, the black object was just an example. Take a red object, with
> a relatively high diffuse, and a white light source. The surface can have
> white highlights even though the surface is red.
> 
>   If you average the diffuse and the specular reflection, the latter
> would get a red tint.
> 

If you add them up, there will be a red tint as well. It's just that you 
clamp the components of the color after the fact, ending up with 
something white. If no clamping happens, the red tint should still be there.

-- 
Vincent

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