Patrick Elliott wrote:
> Would have probably made a HUD for that if I was doing it,

HUDs came out about a month after I gave up. :-)

> or secluded people so they couldn't "see" outside their spot, 

I made them sit in a chair, and stay in mouse-look mode, and ended the 
game if they stood up or left first-person mode.  But it was a pain in 
the butt, moreso than actually writing the game.

Even genning up the game board was annoying, because it had to be made 
from a board, two chairs, and 25 playing pieces on each side, so if the 
plot was close to full, it would fail to create things halfway through 
and you couldn't tell.

> pay to "upload" the result to SL. Thought it would be a nice solution to 
> something I considered doing, but... What a fracking pain.

Strange. I read on their blog recently you could just use Bryce to make 
some geometry and use it. Maybe I misunderstood, or the article wasn't 
completely clear.

> Things are improving though, especially now that the client in open, but 
> there are just some things that are damn stupid still, and no idea when 
> they might be fixed.

Yeah.  Like I said, interesting idea, suboptimal execution. At some 
point, someone will get it right and eat their lunch.

-- 
   Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
     "That's pretty. Where's that?"
          "It's the Age of Channelwood."
     "We should go there on vacation some time."

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Nicolas Alvarez wrote:
> Btw I got that image from an email my dad forwarded me, asking if I knew 
> what the hell SecondLife was :P

http://www.getafirstlife.com/

-- 
   Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
     "That's pretty. Where's that?"
          "It's the Age of Channelwood."
     "We should go there on vacation some time."

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In article <4818923d$1@news.povray.org>, dne### [at] sanrrcom says...
> Patrick Elliott wrote:
> > Would have probably made a HUD for that if I was doing it,
> 
> HUDs came out about a month after I gave up. :-)
> 
Ah..

> > pay to "upload" the result to SL. Thought it would be a nice solution t
o 
> > something I considered doing, but... What a fracking pain.
> 
> Strange. I read on their blog recently you could just use Bryce to make
 
> some geometry and use it. Maybe I misunderstood, or the article wasn't 
> completely clear.
> 
Maybe you could. Bryce may actually export the correct sort of tri-color 
png file needed to do it. I will have to look at that.

> > Things are improving though, especially now that the client in open, bu
t 
> > there are just some things that are damn stupid still, and no idea when
 
> > they might be fixed.
> 
> Yeah.  Like I said, interesting idea, suboptimal execution. At some 
> point, someone will get it right and eat their lunch.
> 
Well, they spent a lot more time thinking about how to get the data to 
and from the client and run sims on servers, than they did making the 
client work. I would have imho, done things more the other way around 
(or found someone that had a clue to work on the front end, while I 
worked on the back). 

-- 
void main () {

    if version = "Vista" {
      call slow_by_half();
      call DRM_everything();
    }
    call functional_code();
  }
  else
    call crash_windows();
}

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Patrick Elliott wrote:
> Well, they spent a lot more time thinking about how to get the data to 
> and from the client and run sims on servers, than they did making the 
> client work. I would have imho, done things more the other way around 
> (or found someone that had a clue to work on the front end, while I 
> worked on the back). 

No question it's a difficult problem. Making a 3D world with physics 
that you can have multiple players manipulating stuff they themselves 
created and wrote the interaction code for? Awesome.

Business model where you're actually selling what costs you money and 
enlisting the aid of people paying you to create more value? Awesome.

It's just really hard to program some sorts of things because you *have* 
to deal with the physics, and their security model sucks. Everything is 
independent once you create it - you can't have two parts of one object 
communicate with each other except by actually talking out loud within 
earshot of the other part. There's no simulation of "wiring" or "radio" 
or anything (I know about the channels - not the same thing), and things 
have to move by actually moving at some fixed maximum speed. Plus, as I 
said, since they're independent, there's no good error recovery. You 
can't, for example, make a button on a machine that changes a picture 
from a plus sign to a circle when you push it and also causes some other 
object to run a script without the player being able to overhear the two 
items whispering back and forth.

Plus, to prevent abuse, they had to make it a PITA to affect any player 
with any sorts of restrictions on what they could do. They should have 
had a mode where you get prompted once "can I take over your character?" 
If so, then the script can do whatever it needs until you issue some GUI 
command like "take me home", at which point you go back to the state you 
were in when you gave permission to the script. *Then* you could do cool 
kinds of interactive fiction/story, rather than just having interactive 
environments.

That's why the vast majority of everything interactive is either dance 
balls or vending machines selling dance balls.

I wanted to build a jumpman type game, but there was no way to make it 
work - no way to set the weight of the character, or keep them from 
flying or setting teleport points, or etc.

Altho some of the costumes were really awesome. :-)

-- 
   Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
     "That's pretty. Where's that?"
          "It's the Age of Channelwood."
     "We should go there on vacation some time."

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In article <4819e1c6$1@news.povray.org>, dne### [at] sanrrcom says...
> Patrick Elliott wrote:
> > Well, they spent a lot more time thinking about how to get the data to
 
> > and from the client and run sims on servers, than they did making the
 
> > client work. I would have imho, done things more the other way around
 
> > (or found someone that had a clue to work on the front end, while I 
> > worked on the back). 
> 
> It's just really hard to program some sorts of things because you *have*
 
> to deal with the physics, and their security model sucks. Everything is
 
> independent once you create it - you can't have two parts of one object
 
> communicate with each other except by actually talking out loud within 
> earshot of the other part. There's no simulation of "wiring" or "radio"
 
> or anything (I know about the channels - not the same thing), and things
 
> have to move by actually moving at some fixed maximum speed. Plus, as I
 
> said, since they're independent, there's no good error recovery. You 
> can't, for example, make a button on a machine that changes a picture 
> from a plus sign to a circle when you push it and also causes some other
 
> object to run a script without the player being able to overhear the two
 
> items whispering back and forth.
> 
You have been out for a while then. lol For example, the stargates have 
three prims that do things, at minimum, some have at least 6 others, and 
they do talk to each other "without" you hearing them chat at all. Not 
sure the maximum speed thing is a problem any more either. I am not sure 
if error handling is possible yet, but there is a "script error" window, 
for when things fail. Just not sure if it works internally to the script 
too. I think a fair number of these things where corrected along with 
the adding of huds and menus, where you obviously don't want the 
hud/menu "talking" to the item to make it do anything. Again, using the 
stargate as an example, you can either tell the gate "/d SGC", or, if 
you know the address and there is a DHD there, you can actually click 
the buttons on the DHD. Each one, without whispering or showing visible 
text at all, will send data to a script, which then lights the panel for 
that, and if you have 6 lit and press the center button, it will attempt 
to "dial" that, again, talking to the gate, without you seeing anything 
at all, other than the gate saying, "Dialing SGC". Note, this is also, 
somehow, linked to a DB on Alpha Fox's website, which keeps track of 
active gates, so that when you dial the address, it knows where the gate 
in that "region" is, and can send the gates event horizon a "location". 
When you click on the horizon, you get the map location shown for where 
the gate is, and can then teleport. Supposedly there is an up and coming 
script function that will also allow llteleportagent, which will just 
teleport you direct, so you would just detect collision with the event 
horizon and have it go "llteleportagent(123,456,789)", or something like 
that.

But the limitations you are talking about... Don't exist anymore.

Hmm. Mind you, the communication between them "may" still be talking, 
but if so, its like channel -900000 or something, so, its hidden from 
view for anyone that can't "see" the channel in question.

Mind you, however it "does" work, there must be some bugs. Tried to 
install a script to have the event horizon automatically give me a map 
link, so I could come "close" to what its supposed to do, but either the 
existing script in the object messed it up, or it just doesn't work 
right. :(

> Plus, to prevent abuse, they had to make it a PITA to affect any player
 
> with any sorts of restrictions on what they could do. They should have 
> had a mode where you get prompted once "can I take over your character?"
 
> If so, then the script can do whatever it needs until you issue some GUI
 
> command like "take me home", at which point you go back to the state you
 
> were in when you gave permission to the script. *Then* you could do cool
 
> kinds of interactive fiction/story, rather than just having interactive
 
> environments.
> 
You mean, like a pose stand. Bought a swim override recently that way, 
you click "pose" on the menu, it moves you up onto the platform and 
places you in the right position, then starts the animation. Some of 
them will "ask" if you want to allow certain things too. When you want 
to leave it you just use the menu, or a button at the bottom of the 
screen, which says "stand up", works just like the pose balls, but with 
more control. There is also huds like the Zhao which store overrides for 
your motion, so you can have better walks, etc. You drop them into the 
device, change some settings in the note card in there, then wear it, 
click load, and now you don't walk like everyone else does. It can 
override all of them. The only gripe I have is that it takes over your 
keys, so if you also wear one of the "flight assist" devices, which do 
the same, then clicking "release keys" to remover the assist also kills 
your animation overrides. Sigh...

> That's why the vast majority of everything interactive is either dance 
> balls or vending machines selling dance balls.
> 
> I wanted to build a jumpman type game, but there was no way to make it 
> work - no way to set the weight of the character, or keep them from 
> flying or setting teleport points, or etc.
> 
You can now set an area to disallow flying, as well as preventing 
teleports.

I think you would find that while there is a lot the same as you 
remember, there is a *lot* that is different too now.

-- 
void main () {

    if version = "Vista" {
      call slow_by_half();
      call DRM_everything();
    }
    call functional_code();
  }
  else
    call crash_windows();
}

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3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>

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Patrick Elliott wrote:
> You have been out for a while then. lol For example, the stargates have 
> three prims that do things, at minimum, some have at least 6 others, and 
> they do talk to each other "without" you hearing them chat at all.

Possibly. It's possible to "whisper" on a separate channel, but it's 
also possible that anyone nearby can hear the whisper *if* they listen 
on that channel. That might be how they're talking.

> sure the maximum speed thing is a problem any more either. I am not sure 
> if error handling is possible yet, but there is a "script error" window, 
> for when things fail. 

Well, sure. That's unhelpful when you want the game to (say) show the 
gun as overheating when it can't create new bullets or something.

> Each one, without whispering or showing visible 
> text at all, will send data to a script, which then lights the panel for 
> that, and if you have 6 lit and press the center button, it will attempt 
> to "dial" that, again, talking to the gate, without you seeing anything 
> at all, other than the gate saying, "Dialing SGC".

Probably talking over channels, of which there are 2^15 or something if 
I remember. If you knew which it was using, you could probably overhear 
it talking. Definitely not good for things like poker tables talking to 
the cards and the pot.

 > Note, this is also,
> somehow, linked to a DB on Alpha Fox's website, which keeps track of 
> active gates, so that when you dial the address, it knows where the gate 
> in that "region" is, and can send the gates event horizon a "location".

Most likely email. Or at least that's all that was available last I 
looked. That's also how you get information between components if 
they're too far apart to hear each other talking.

> But the limitations you are talking about... Don't exist anymore.

OK.

> Hmm. Mind you, the communication between them "may" still be talking, 
> but if so, its like channel -900000 or something, so, its hidden from 
> view for anyone that can't "see" the channel in question.

That's what I mean. If you know the channel, you can hear it (which is 
*bad* for a game where money is an actual component), and if the parts 
are too far apart, suddenly you have to switch to an entirely new 
communication mechanism. If you have a button at one side of the sim 
that opens a door at the other side of the sim, you actually have to 
talk via email between them, because you can't "shout" loud enough even 
on a channel. Makes something like Jumpman difficult.

Plus, you have to listen for properly structured "sentences" and parse 
them out to understand what to do.

> Mind you, however it "does" work, there must be some bugs. Tried to 
> install a script to have the event horizon automatically give me a map 
> link, so I could come "close" to what its supposed to do, but either the 
> existing script in the object messed it up, or it just doesn't work 
> right. :(

That was my other complaint. Plus, "community-supported wiki" is really 
geek-speak for "we can't be bothered to document our system."

> override all of them. The only gripe I have is that it takes over your 
> keys, so if you also wear one of the "flight assist" devices, which do 
> the same, then clicking "release keys" to remover the assist also kills 
> your animation overrides. Sigh...

Yeah. Stuff like that.

> You can now set an area to disallow flying, as well as preventing 
> teleports.

You could do that before, but only if you actually own the land where 
you set up the game.  And I realized the physics would make it 
challenging, too, when someone decides they're really big or really 
small, for exmaple.

> I think you would find that while there is a lot the same as you 
> remember, there is a *lot* that is different too now.

I'm sure it has improved greatly, yes. Do I have time to keep up with 
such things for fun?  Sadly not. :-)

-- 
   Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
     "That's pretty. Where's that?"
          "It's the Age of Channelwood."
     "We should go there on vacation some time."

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