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Darren New <dne### [at] san rrcom> wrote:
> >> The goal is to have nobody innocent hassled by the government here.
> >
> > Does that apply to all crimes, or only illegal immigration? Why?
> All crimes. Note that it's not "hassle" if you actually have reason to
> suspect someone of a crime. If you find a dead woman, you question the
> husband and boss and etc. You don't go walking up and down the streets
> stopping everyone and questioning them.
I suppose it depends on your definition of "hassle". If illegal immigration
is a big problem at some place, I think it should be understandable if the
police regularly asks people for their ID.
> > How can you compare asking someone's ID to putting someone in prison?
> Because that's what happens when you don't have ID. Note that it's not just
> "ID" but "proof of citizenship."
I thought ID is exactly that.
Carrying some form of ID at all times is not mandatory here, but there
are many countries where it is (at least technically, by the letter of the
law). Spain is one example, AFAIK.
> Hell, I'd be surprised if 75% of the
> people in Congress here had actual proof of citizenship where they could get
> to it within 24 hours.
If ID is not proof of citizenship, then what is?
> > If I started complaining how the stores asking me for my ID is
> > discrimination, I would be a complete idiot.
> Great. Do you want the stores to ask you for ID when you're *not* buying
> something from them? When you're just walking down the road, do you want
> every store you pass to ask for your ID?
Is it necessary for a store to ask my ID if I'm not buying anything, if
the goal is to avoid stolen credit card abuse?
> Or to show them you have enough
> money to buy what they have in their store?
I thought they pretty much do that on the checkout counter. It's not like
they let you leave with the goods if you don't have the money.
> > Is this comparison far-fetched? Much less far-fetched than comparing
> > asking for someone's ID with putting someone in prison.
> Lots of people here don't have ID. There's no reason to carry ID if you're
> just out walking around.
Well, sometimes one has to adapt to the conditions.
Of course if illegal immigration is not seen as such a big problem, then
perhaps the police should stop even trying?
> This country has IDs for specific purposes: A
> driver's license to drive, a social security number to track social security
> tax payments, a passport to pass ports.
But not to prove that you have the right to stay in the country?
> >> Because what you're doing is hassling all people of central american
> >> descent, regardless of whether they've done anything wrong. That's by
> >> definition racism. You're treating people differently based on their race,
> >> not their behavior.
> >
> > And the police investigating males in rape cases is sexism, by the same
> > logic.
> Only if they investigated *all* males, instead of just the ones who might
> have been in the area, etc. "Hi, a woman was raped three blocks from here.
> Please come with us until you can prove you didn't do it."
It's only sexism if they check *all* males, not just *some* males (but no
females)? Sorry, the argument doesn't hold.
If they check only males but not females, it's *technically speaking*
sexism because they are "discriminating" against males. Of course there's
a completely justifiable *reason* for that.
> > So what? Are you saying that nobody should be investigated because they
> > might be legal immigrants? Or what is it that you are trying to say? I don't
> > get it.
> I'm saying nobody should be investigated because of their facial features.
> They should be investigated if there's some reason to believe they committed
> a crime.
Well, I suppose that if you don't feel illegal immigration to be such a
problem, then you could let political correctness get in the way of efficient
law enforcement.
> We don't let the cops randomly pull over drivers just to make sure they paid
> their insurance and license taxes, either. You actually have to do something
> wrong first.
You don't? Here the police regularly stops drivers. Well, not to check
their licenses, but to check their alcohol level. No suspicion is needed.
Maybe it's different there.
> > Let's go again with the rape inverstigation: Should the police stop
> > investigating people because most of them did not commit the crime? After
> > all, you can't distinguish one male from another in this respect.
> But you can. Do you think it's reasonable if someone got raped in a
> neighborhood for the police to go door to door and demand every male in the
> house provide a DNA sample?
Wait, I say that you can't distinguish one male from another, and you
respond that you can, but then you don't explain *how*. Exactly how do you
make the distinction?
Demanding DNA tests of thousands of people is not exactly the most efficient
use of resources because it's time-consuming and expensive.
It would be interesting to know how people feel about such a suggestion.
Would they be ready for something that may feel as an "invasion of privacy"
to some people in order to catch rapists, or are they willing to compromise
conviction rates with their own sense of privacy? What is an "acceptable"
conviction rate for rape?
> > I don't think the solution to the problem of corrupt police officers is
> > to make the laws more lenient. Why would it?
> No, the solution is to have laws that regulate the behavior of those police
> and punish them when they're corrupt.
Ok. And what does this have to do with using the law enforcement resources
more efficiently to catch illegal immigrants?
> > Is the assumption that a black person is more likely to steal a car than
> > a white person based on pure prejudice, or statistics?
> It's not even a matter of "stealing cars." You're a black person in a nice
> neighborhood, so you must be up to no good, so we're going to stop you, make
> you late for where you're going, and possibly arrest you if you give us any
> crap or ask us why we're stopping you.
I'm not saying that's a right thing to do, but I would still be interested
in knowing whether that behavior is based more on prejudice or on statistics.
--
- Warp
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Warp wrote:
> If he is an illegal immigrant, why should the country he illegally
> entered take responsibility? It's his own country's problem.
I think it's more a matter of "what are you going to do?" If the country
won't take him back, it's not like you can leave him in a cardboard box on
the front step.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Linux: Now bringing the quality and usability of
open source desktop apps to your personal electronics.
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Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> On Sat, 01 May 2010 17:10:09 -0400, Warp wrote:
> > How can you compare asking someone's ID to putting someone in prison?
> > Aren't you exaggerating a bit here?
> NO! That's the point - if you LOOK like an illegal immigrant, you have
> to provide on the spot PROOF that you're not, and if you can't, YOU GO TO
> JAIL. That's what the law is all about.
Well, there are basically two options:
1) Demand that all people always carry a form of identification.
2) Stop trying to catch illegal immigrants.
Which one do you prefer? I assume you understand the consequences of
choice #2.
--
- Warp
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andrel <byt### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> >> There is another way that even takes less time and is not illegal
> >> because of various international laws: don't question people unless you
> >> have a serious reason to believe that they are illegal (or you are
> >> questioning them anyway because of a non-related suspicion or check).
> >
> > And then watch illegal immigration raise. Right.
> Wrong.
The police should stop looking for illegal immigrants, and that will not
cause illegal immigration to raise? Can you give some kind of explanation
how that works?
Maybe you should awaken to the real world. If a country gets a fame of
being very lenient on enforcing its immigration laws, the word *will* spread
and people *will* try to get to that country because, once they are inside,
it's unlikely they will ever get caught and deported.
And if enforcing the laws is indeed lenient, they will be successful, and
the amount of illegal immigrants will inevitably raise.
> > It's better to allow illegal immigration than to possibly offend someone.
> It it not about offence, it is about human rights and/or the local law.
It still sounds to me like "the police should stop checking primarily
Mexican-looking people because it's racism and it offends them".
> > If find your argument that "the police should not be looking for the
> > illegal immigrant because doing so might offend someone" even more
> > disturbing.
> They have all the right to do so, just not based on looks alone.
Basically, this is pragmatism vs. political correctness.
--
- Warp
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Warp wrote:
> I suppose it depends on your definition of "hassle". If illegal immigration
> is a big problem at some place, I think it should be understandable if the
> police regularly asks people for their ID.
If it was "ask for ID", then yes, it wouldn't be *too* much of a problem.
Instead, it's "ask for proof of citizenship, and arrest you if you don't
have it, until someone can come up with it."
>>> How can you compare asking someone's ID to putting someone in prison?
>
>> Because that's what happens when you don't have ID. Note that it's not just
>> "ID" but "proof of citizenship."
>
> I thought ID is exactly that.
Generally not. Proof of citizenship here is generally birth certificates,
passports, or (for some, like who immigrated before computers) someone
personally vouching for you.
> Carrying some form of ID at all times is not mandatory here, but there
> are many countries where it is (at least technically, by the letter of the
> law). Spain is one example, AFAIK.
Yes, but the ID here doesn't say whether you're a citizen. I have all kinds
of papers that identify who I am without saying whether I'm a citizen.
>> Hell, I'd be surprised if 75% of the
>> people in Congress here had actual proof of citizenship where they could get
>> to it within 24 hours.
>
> If ID is not proof of citizenship, then what is?
Proof of citizenship. I.e., only certain kinds of ID. In particular,
passports. I can't think of anything else offhand that combines proof of
citizenship and identification in one document. A birth certificate doesn't
identify you, and the other forms of identity documents are all mostly
available to non-citizens.
There's also "Green Cards" (which are pink, for some reason) which is a card
that combines ID and proof that you're *not* a citizen but that you *are*
allowed to be here.
But since you can be a citizen without any identifying papers at all, then
no, there's no ID that every citizen has.
> Is it necessary for a store to ask my ID if I'm not buying anything, if
> the goal is to avoid stolen credit card abuse?
Sure. Because you look like someone who commits a lot of fraud. :-)
>> Or to show them you have enough
>> money to buy what they have in their store?
>
> I thought they pretty much do that on the checkout counter. It's not like
> they let you leave with the goods if you don't have the money.
As you walk past?
>
>>> Is this comparison far-fetched? Much less far-fetched than comparing
>>> asking for someone's ID with putting someone in prison.
>
>> Lots of people here don't have ID. There's no reason to carry ID if you're
>> just out walking around.
>
> Well, sometimes one has to adapt to the conditions.
Sure. And if people normally had proof of citizenship easily available, the
same way they have identification, it would be less of a hassle. But they don't.
>> This country has IDs for specific purposes: A
>> driver's license to drive, a social security number to track social security
>> tax payments, a passport to pass ports.
>
> But not to prove that you have the right to stay in the country?
Correct. Well, the passports of *foreigners* show you have a right to stay
in the country if you have the right visa. The US passport shows you have a
right to come into (and presumedly stay) in the country. But people don't
normally carry their passports around with them.
Plus, citizens have the right to stay in the country even if they've never
had a passport.
>>>> Because what you're doing is hassling all people of central american
>>>> descent, regardless of whether they've done anything wrong. That's by
>>>> definition racism. You're treating people differently based on their race,
>>>> not their behavior.
>>> And the police investigating males in rape cases is sexism, by the same
>>> logic.
>
>> Only if they investigated *all* males, instead of just the ones who might
>> have been in the area, etc. "Hi, a woman was raped three blocks from here.
>> Please come with us until you can prove you didn't do it."
>
> It's only sexism if they check *all* males, not just *some* males (but no
> females)? Sorry, the argument doesn't hold.
Yes. It's sexism if they investigate all males, including those they already
know couldn't have been involved, or who they think have no reason to be
involved. If they investigate only those who might have committed the crime,
then they are good. If that means they only investigate males because
they've already ruled out females, that's fine.
> If they check only males but not females, it's *technically speaking*
> sexism because they are "discriminating" against males. Of course there's
> a completely justifiable *reason* for that.
Exactly. In counterpoint, there's no justifiable *reason* for stopping
random brown-skinned people and asking if they're breaking the law.
>> I'm saying nobody should be investigated because of their facial features.
>> They should be investigated if there's some reason to believe they committed
>> a crime.
>
> Well, I suppose that if you don't feel illegal immigration to be such a
> problem, then you could let political correctness get in the way of efficient
> law enforcement.
Do you understand the difference between "looking Mexican" and "having a
reason to believe that particular person committed a crime"?
>> We don't let the cops randomly pull over drivers just to make sure they paid
>> their insurance and license taxes, either. You actually have to do something
>> wrong first.
>
> You don't? Here the police regularly stops drivers. Well, not to check
> their licenses, but to check their alcohol level. No suspicion is needed.
Yes, and when they do, they're required not to stop just the people who look
mexican.
There are sobriety checkpoints here, but the rules are that you either have
to check everyone going through, or you have to check every Nth driver. You
can't just pick out people you don't like.
>>> Let's go again with the rape inverstigation: Should the police stop
>>> investigating people because most of them did not commit the crime? After
>>> all, you can't distinguish one male from another in this respect.
>
>> But you can. Do you think it's reasonable if someone got raped in a
>> neighborhood for the police to go door to door and demand every male in the
>> house provide a DNA sample?
>
> Wait, I say that you can't distinguish one male from another, and you
> respond that you can, but then you don't explain *how*. Exactly how do you
> make the distinction?
If the woman was raped 15 minutes ago, no male that's more than 15 minutes
travel time from the scene is a suspect. You don't go checking every male in
Arizona to see if he's the rapist.
> Demanding DNA tests of thousands of people is not exactly the most efficient
> use of resources because it's time-consuming and expensive.
It's also illegal. We have this rule that says the police actually have to
have a reason to suspect you committed a crime before they're allowed to
arrest you or search you. They don't get to say "Someone had their watch
stolen, so we're going to go through every house in the neighborhood to see
if we can find it."
Maybe your country doesn't have such a rule, but ours does.
> It would be interesting to know how people feel about such a suggestion.
It's already decided, repeatedly, that people don't want a DNA database.
> Would they be ready for something that may feel as an "invasion of privacy"
> to some people in order to catch rapists, or are they willing to compromise
> conviction rates with their own sense of privacy? What is an "acceptable"
> conviction rate for rape?
No. You see, there's no benefit to the individual citizens to cooperate if
the police don't suspect them.
Plus, DNA profiling doesn't work that way anyway.
>>> I don't think the solution to the problem of corrupt police officers is
>>> to make the laws more lenient. Why would it?
>
>> No, the solution is to have laws that regulate the behavior of those police
>> and punish them when they're corrupt.
>
> Ok. And what does this have to do with using the law enforcement resources
> more efficiently to catch illegal immigrants?
Because this law is written in such a way as to encourage corruption under
the guise of more efficiently catching illegal immigrants.
> I'm not saying that's a right thing to do, but I would still be interested
> in knowing whether that behavior is based more on prejudice or on statistics.
Prejudice.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Linux: Now bringing the quality and usability of
open source desktop apps to your personal electronics.
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Warp wrote:
> 1) Demand that all people always carry a form of identification.
Identification isn't proof of being allowed to be in the country. I do
always carry identification. That doesn't prove I'm allowed to be here.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Linux: Now bringing the quality and usability of
open source desktop apps to your personal electronics.
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Warp wrote:
> It still sounds to me like "the police should stop checking primarily
> Mexican-looking people because it's racism and it offends them".
If the primary illegal immigrants look Mexican, then the majority of people
doing something that raises suspicion that they're illegal immigrants will
be primarily Mexican.
Not being prejudiced about it doesn't make it more lenient.
Analogy: If Mexicans are the primary drunk drivers, pulling over mexicans at
random is not going to reduce drunk driving as much as pulling over people
who are driving erratically. Even if the majority of the people you stop
wind up being Mexican, there's no reason to pull over Mexican drivers
driving safely to see if they're drunk.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Linux: Now bringing the quality and usability of
open source desktop apps to your personal electronics.
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Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> In the US, we're supposed to be presumed innocent until proven guilty.
> You're starting with a presumption of guilt, which goes against the
> ideals under which this law is created.
So if you go to a grocery store and use your credit card to buy something
and they want to check your ID to make sure you are the real owner of the
card, are they presuming you guilty until you prove you are not? Or is this
simply a security measure which, on the grand scale, benefits you as well
as everybody else?
If you enter the country and at the airport they check your baggage using
an X-ray machine, are they presuming you guilty? Or is this just a security
measure?
If a police officer asks for your ID to check that you have the right to
live in the country, is he presuming you guilty, or is it just a security
measure?
You make it sound like in that last case the situation is different, for
some reason.
> Based. On. Skin. Colour.
Why are people so damn obsessed with skin color? Criminal profiling does
not have anything to do with racism. Skin color is just one feature which
can be used for profiling.
If most illegal immigrants happen to look similar, it only makes sense
to concentrate resources on people who look like that. It's the same as
the vast majority of rapists being male, hence it it makes sense to
concentrate resources on investigating males and skipping females. Nobody
is crying sexism because of that.
I really think people are way too hypersensitive with any kind of
profiling based precisely on skin color. Any other type of profiling is
ok, but heaven forbid if you start using skin color as a distinctive
feature. The second you do that, all human rights are flushed down the
toilet. Sheesh.
> Nothing else. If you *look* like an illegal, you are presumed guilty
> until you prove otherwise. This could be a daily occurrence IF YOU
> HAPPEN TO HAVE THE WRONG COLOUR SKIN.
> Hell, it could happen HOURLY.
> Wouldn't that piss YOU off if YOU were constantly having to prove that
> you were in your country legally?
If it significantly increased my own security, I wouldn't. (Of course
I'm not saying that's the case here. I'm just saying that there are more
sides to this than an extremist political correctness.)
--
- Warp
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andrel <byt### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> What you are proposing
> - is not effective
What do you suggest which would be more effective?
> - will violate rights of legal citizens
Wait, exactly what am I proposing here that would "violate rights of
legal citizens"?
Don't confuse what *I* am proposing with whatever laws they are proposing
in those states in the US. I don't know what exactly they are proposing there,
nor am I explicitly advocating those laws.
I am simply arguing that extreme one-sided political correctness *can* be
too naive to be practical. Sometimes innocent people have to endure some
scrutiny (and even profiling) if criminals are to be caught.
> - will harm trust in the police and the juridical system
Well, I suppose it could. It's basically a lose-lose situation. You can't
win. Either you get many criminals go free which would otherwise be caught
of more efficient measures were taken, or you anger people.
> - will increase racial tension
I really think people are way too sensitive about what they perceive as
"racism". Well, I suppose there's no helping that.
> For these and a number of other reasons legislators all over the world
> have decided it is not a good idea and made it illegal.
Make what illegal, exactly? You seem to use the word "it" to refer to
something I have proposed. What exactly?
> Although it
> seems a good idea at first sight, if you think a little longer you will
> understand why it will destabilize the society more than it solves
> illegal immigration.
As I said, it's a lose-lose situation.
--
- Warp
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Stephen <mca### [at] aoldotcom> wrote:
> Good guess and said better than I could but I just don't want anyone to
> live in a Nazi state.
I think this is a genuine instance of Godwin's law.
--
- Warp
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