> It's a load of codswallop.  If I titrate caffeine to the point there's
> none left in solution in the water, the water is *no different* than
> taking water that's never been near caffeine.  It is chemically the
> *same*.

I think these people believe there is something "beyond" basic chemistry, ie 
even when no active substance can be detected, it has somehow made its mark 
on the carrier substance (water, sugar etc).  And as is completely normal 
with human nature, they subconsciously interpret the results of a few very 
unscientific tests (eg my friends mum was cured by it) and conclude it 
works.

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On 3/25/2010 3:52 PM, Darren New wrote:
> TC wrote:
>> Apart from this all: the strangest thing is the (scientifically
>> proven) effect of a placebo - it is strange that it actually works.
>
> Even stranger: The placebo effect is getting stronger. There are
> medicines on the market in the USA that if you re-tested them, you'd
> find they're ineffective. The placbo effect has gotten stronger to the
> point where it's
> now stronger than the actual medicine that passed scrutiny a couple
> decades ago.
>
Sometimes this is called "over use". People are exposed, directly or 
indirectly, to things so much that their bodies "get used to" having it 
in the blood stream, so when you do need it, its less effective. This is 
well known, with almost *everything*, especially if it effects nerves, 
brain function, etc.

-- 
void main () {
   If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
     if version = "Vista" {
       call slow_by_half();
       call DRM_everything();
     }
     call functional_code();
   }
   else
     call crash_windows();
}

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3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>

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scott <sco### [at] scottcom> wrote:
> I think these people believe there is something "beyond" basic chemistry, ie 
> even when no active substance can be detected, it has somehow made its mark 
> on the carrier substance (water, sugar etc).  And as is completely normal 
> with human nature, they subconsciously interpret the results of a few very 
> unscientific tests (eg my friends mum was cured by it) and conclude it 
> works.

  I have hard time understanding the psychological phenomenon that many
people are eager to believe in some things based solely on what other
people *claim*, without any actual convincing evidence, or with just some
flimsy circumstancial evidence of eyewitness testimony, and *keep believing*
in it even after an enormously more comprehensive and accurate testing shows
that the thing is bogus.

  Someone might believe that something works because someone claims that it
worked on 10 people. Even if a scientifically accurate study is then performed
repeatedly on 1000 people, and this test shows that it doesn't actually work,
these people will *still* believe it works.

  I really can't understand why. It's like accurate scientifical testing which
is more extensive and more thorough is less convincing than a much smaller
sample of inaccurate circumstancial evidence.

  Why do so many people think like this? What is the psychological phenomenon
behind this kind of thinking?

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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>  Suppose you have 30 containers with 0.9 liters of water in each (totaling
> 27 liters). Put 0.1 liters into the first container, then take 0.1 liters
> from this solution, put it in the second container, then take 0.1 liters 
> of
> this solution, put it in the third container, and so on.

Where do you get 27 liters of water from that doesn't have a single molecule 
in it of the thing you are trying to dilute?

Better hope nobody has already tried it and thrown away the 10% solution 
into the sea :-)

Post a reply to this message

>  Why do so many people think like this? What is the psychological 
> phenomenon
> behind this kind of thinking?

In most cases I suspect it is because the person just can't been bothered to 
research it, they have more important things in their life to worry about 
than whether some cool-sounding fad medicine is scientifically proven to 
work or not.  Hey they might not even realise there is such a thing as a 
scientific test.

I suspect if you confronted most people who bought this stuff and explained 
the science and the study results, they would believe you.

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"scott" <sco### [at] scottcom> wrote:
> I suspect if you confronted most people who bought this stuff and explained
> the science and the study results, they would believe you.

I doubt it. If you could reason with people believing in such things, they
wouldn't believe in them in the first place.

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>> I suspect if you confronted most people who bought this stuff and 
>> explained
>> the science and the study results, they would believe you.
>
> I doubt it. If you could reason with people believing in such things, they
> wouldn't believe in them in the first place.

The thing is they just don't care about the science, they buy it because it 
seems cool, and don't even give a second thought to how it has been tested 
or what "30C" actually means.  Most people are reasonable once you explain 
things to them (of course there are exceptions, the "die hard" believers).

Post a reply to this message

scott <sco### [at] scottcom> wrote:
> >  Why do so many people think like this? What is the psychological 
> > phenomenon
> > behind this kind of thinking?

> In most cases I suspect it is because the person just can't been bothered to 
> research it, they have more important things in their life to worry about 
> than whether some cool-sounding fad medicine is scientifically proven to 
> work or not.  Hey they might not even realise there is such a thing as a 
> scientific test.

  I specifically talked about people who keep believing in it even *after*
they have been told about the better tests. In other words, they refuse to
believe in the accuracy of the scientifical tests.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

Post a reply to this message

scott <sco### [at] scottcom> wrote:
> >  Suppose you have 30 containers with 0.9 liters of water in each (totaling
> > 27 liters). Put 0.1 liters into the first container, then take 0.1 liters
> > from this solution, put it in the second container, then take 0.1 liters 
> > of
> > this solution, put it in the third container, and so on.

> Where do you get 27 liters of water from that doesn't have a single molecule 
> in it of the thing you are trying to dilute?

> Better hope nobody has already tried it and thrown away the 10% solution 
> into the sea :-)

  I'm sure homeopaths will argue something like the solution specifically
needing to be performed by "succussion" or else there will be no effect.
(Don't bother asking for the physical or chemical explanation for this.)

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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On 26/03/2010 8:28 AM, Warp wrote:

>
>    I have hard time understanding the psychological phenomenon that many
> people are eager to believe in some things based solely on what other
> people *claim*, without any actual convincing evidence, or with just some

[snip]

>    Why do so many people think like this? What is the psychological phenomenon
> behind this kind of thinking?
>



-- 

Best Regards,
	Stephen

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