Actually, they *do* make a lot more sense with Warp's explanation of what 
the Architect was saying.

Who is that lying in the water at the end? The oracle? I'm not sure I 100% 
followed that point.

It's also a lot easier to see who is a model and who is an actor in HD. Not 
unlike watching Indiana Jones in slow motion.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   The question in today's corporate environment is not
   so much "what color is your parachute?" as it is
   "what color is your nose?"

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On Sat, 06 Mar 2010 22:29:27 -0800, Darren New wrote:

> Actually, they *do* make a lot more sense with Warp's explanation of
> what the Architect was saying.

I agree; on a rewatch recently, I found the story had much more cohesion 
than I originally thought.

> Who is that lying in the water at the end? The oracle? I'm not sure I
> 100% followed that point.

It was the Oracle - I was so surprised when I realised that that I went 
back and watched again more closely.

> It's also a lot easier to see who is a model and who is an actor in HD.
> Not unlike watching Indiana Jones in slow motion.

Yep.

Jim

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Jim Henderson wrote:
> It was the Oracle - I was so surprised when I realised that that I went 
> back and watched again more closely.

And, having slept on it, I figured out what that was supposed to mean, I think.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   The question in today's corporate environment is not
   so much "what color is your parachute?" as it is
   "what color is your nose?"

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On Sun, 07 Mar 2010 08:21:21 -0800, Darren New wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> It was the Oracle - I was so surprised when I realised that that I went
>> back and watched again more closely.
> 
> And, having slept on it, I figured out what that was supposed to mean, I
> think.

I had it worked out at one point as well, but I've now forgotten....

Jim

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Jim Henderson wrote:
> I had it worked out at one point as well, but I've now forgotten....

I'm thinking that's part of the "returning to the source", and the Oracle is 
actually the accumulated knowledge of all the One's that have gone before, 
which is why the Oracle didn't show up in the Matrix until around the time 
the architect gave people choice, as well as why the Oracle is changing her 
appearance as Smith grows out of control (obviously I'm retconning there :-).

So once Neo loses his love, he does indeed return to the Source, uploading 
his program via counter-infecting Smith, who promptly de-rezzes into the Oracle.

It almost seems to imply that no only does the human get a choice, but the 
software gets a choice too, and *that* is what screws up the Matrix as well.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   The question in today's corporate environment is not
   so much "what color is your parachute?" as it is
   "what color is your nose?"

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Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> I'm thinking that's part of the "returning to the source", and the Oracle is 
> actually the accumulated knowledge of all the One's that have gone before, 
> which is why the Oracle didn't show up in the Matrix until around the time 
> the architect gave people choice

  Actually I think the Neos started appearing *after* the Architect created
the version of the Matrix where people are given the choice of leaving. The
basic idea for this version of the Matrix was suggested by the Oracle (as the
Architect himself states).

> as well as why the Oracle is changing her 
> appearance as Smith grows out of control (obviously I'm retconning there :-).

  Naturally the real reason for the different appearance in the third movie
is that the original actress died. However, the in-universe explanation was
given in Enter The Matrix (the video game), where the Merovingian kills the
embodiment of the Oracle inside the Matrix, forcing her to create a new one
(she also alludes to this in the third movie).

> It almost seems to imply that no only does the human get a choice, but the 
> software gets a choice too, and *that* is what screws up the Matrix as well.

  I don't think that rogue programs like the Merovingian would make much
sense if they would not also have free will and given free choice.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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Warp wrote:
>   Actually I think the Neos started appearing *after* the Architect created
> the version of the Matrix where people are given the choice of leaving. The
> basic idea for this version of the Matrix was suggested by the Oracle (as the
> Architect himself states).

Yeah, I wasn't sure of the progression there. Of course, it may be that the 
Oracle includes the bit of software that the Ones have to return, so the 
Oracle disappears just as Smith starts replicating out of control (in the 
playground fight scene) and reappears once Neo immolates himself and returns 
it.  Or something. :-)

>> as well as why the Oracle is changing her 
>> appearance as Smith grows out of control (obviously I'm retconning there :-).
> 
>   Naturally the real reason for the different appearance in the third movie
> is that the original actress died. 

(That would be the reconning I was talking about. :-)

? However, the in-universe explanation was
> given in Enter The Matrix (the video game), where the Merovingian kills the
> embodiment of the Oracle inside the Matrix, forcing her to create a new one
> (she also alludes to this in the third movie).

I see. I never saw more of the video game than walkign past someone playing 
it in the store.

>> It almost seems to imply that no only does the human get a choice, but the 
>> software gets a choice too, and *that* is what screws up the Matrix as well.
> 
>   I don't think that rogue programs like the Merovingian would make much
> sense if they would not also have free will and given free choice.

I dunno. It seemed like those programs had come from the machine world, 
while perhaps programs created specifically to work in the Matrix (e.g., 
Smith) might not have much free will. If they go wrong, they get deleted. 
And Neo giving Smith free will is what started to cause the break-down.

Clearly it was very unexpected that Smith wouldn't be a perfect agent, in 
the whole "What are you doing?"  "He doesn't know." scene, for example.


-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   The question in today's corporate environment is not
   so much "what color is your parachute?" as it is
   "what color is your nose?"

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Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> >   I don't think that rogue programs like the Merovingian would make much
> > sense if they would not also have free will and given free choice.

> I dunno. It seemed like those programs had come from the machine world, 
> while perhaps programs created specifically to work in the Matrix (e.g., 
> Smith) might not have much free will. If they go wrong, they get deleted. 
> And Neo giving Smith free will is what started to cause the break-down.

  Well, the whole point with the Sati subplot (the little girl who is
actually a program and machine in the real world) is that she was deemed
obsolete and thus ordered to be deleted but she and/or her parents didn't
want for her to "die" and hence they "escaped" to the Matrix (the Oracle
speaks more about this subject) and seeked protection from the Merovingian.

  It's strongly implied that one of the "illegal businesses" that the
Merovingian practices is to provide asylum for programs which don't want
to be deleted (at a price, of course). In one scene in the second movie
you actually can see Sati's father leaving the Merovingian, we can assume
after negotiating for her protection.

  Thus one can conclude that machines do have a free will and can move
into the Matrix without the Architect's or anybody else's control. Also
that rogue programs are there on their own will and not controlled by
anyone.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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Warp wrote:
>   Thus one can conclude that machines do have a free will and can move
> into the Matrix without the Architect's or anybody else's control.

I was trying to express that programs from the machine world may have free 
will, while the programs designed to run the Matrix do not. When one of them 
gets free will by merging with The One, it sets off a chain reaction that 
will eventually crash the Matrix unless The One returns to finish merging 
into the collection that is the Oracle.

Sure, machines from outside the Matrix have free will. But the ones written 
later just to run the Matrix might not. The "raven" programs don't, and if 
they go wrong they get deleted.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   The question in today's corporate environment is not
   so much "what color is your parachute?" as it is
   "what color is your nose?"

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Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
>    The question in today's corporate environment is not
>    so much "what color is your parachute?" as it is
>    "what color is your nose?"

  What's the answer?

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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