On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 18:28:15 -0500, Warp wrote:

> It sometimes seems that European governments get way too cocky and think
> they can pass whatever laws they want and restrict people's freedom in
> whatever way they want

Happens in the US as well - that's how something like PATRIOT gets passed.

Governments are owned by corporations - doesn't matter where you are in 
the world.  The golden rule applies - he who has the gold makes the rules.

Jim

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Warp wrote:
>   (Of course not everything is right in the US either.

There are way more problems than that here. :-)

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   The question in today's corporate environment is not
   so much "what color is your parachute?" as it is
   "what color is your nose?"

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>>   If that kind of law (ie. all handguns illegal, confiscated without
>> recompensation) was enacted in the US, it would most probably result in a
>> civil war.

Except that a couple of dreaming idealists with pistols and shotguns 
aren't going to last 7 seconds against the entire might of the US 
military, the largest army on the face of God's Earth.

Really, such arguments sound very, very silly to me. The US government 
can do what ever the hell they like, and there's really not especially 
much the US people can do about it. Just like every other country on Earth.

> It just wouldn't get enforced. About 70% said of soldiers
> they wouldn't.

Seems plausible.

> But yeah, this is the whole "we don't trust our government here" that 
> also drives having juries and etc etc etc.

Now, see, if you don't actually trust the government, then you accept 
that you've already lost. The government has so much power that if they 
want to get rid of you, they *will* get rid of you, and there's nothing 
that you as an individual can possibly do about it.

It's like companies who don't trust their sysadmin. Uh, guys, you 
realise that the sysadmin is GOD, right? They can do absolutely 
ANYTHING, and you can't stop them. So you'd *better* make sure they're 
trustworthy before you hire them!

> That's why all the arguments here over whether a firearm is appropriate 
> for hunting game or something like that are simply smokescreens.

Well, I wouldn't want to live on a country where it's legal for any 
random crazy person to own a gun. Not that all gun owners are crazy, you 
understand - just that it only takes one of them to be crazy to cause a 
whole heap of trouble...

Face it, there are already people driving cars which you really wouldn't 
want behind the wheel.

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Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> >>   If that kind of law (ie. all handguns illegal, confiscated without
> >> recompensation) was enacted in the US, it would most probably result in a
> >> civil war.

> Except that a couple of dreaming idealists with pistols and shotguns 
> aren't going to last 7 seconds against the entire might of the US 
> military, the largest army on the face of God's Earth.

  Yeah, sure. The US Army is going to attack its own country and its own
citizens, especially at a large scale, resulting in thousands and thousands
of casualties, millions and millions in property damage and a full-fledged
civil war, plummeting the economy of the country so low that the current
crisis is paradise in comparison. I don't think so.

> Really, such arguments sound very, very silly to me. The US government 
> can do what ever the hell they like, and there's really not especially 
> much the US people can do about it. Just like every other country on Earth.

  There is. They can shoot back.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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>>>>   If that kind of law (ie. all handguns illegal, confiscated without
>>>> recompensation) was enacted in the US, it would most probably result in a
>>>> civil war.
> 
>> Except that a couple of dreaming idealists with pistols and shotguns 
>> aren't going to last 7 seconds against the entire might of the US 
>> military, the largest army on the face of God's Earth.
> 
>   Yeah, sure. The US Army is going to attack its own country and its own
> citizens, especially at a large scale, resulting in thousands and thousands
> of casualties, millions and millions in property damage and a full-fledged
> civil war, plummeting the economy of the country so low that the current
> crisis is paradise in comparison. I don't think so.

The entire country isn't going to resist. Half a dozen zeolots will, the 
rest will just quietly accept it. Half a dozen zeolots are not difficult 
to control when you have a huge army at your disposal.

>> Really, such arguments sound very, very silly to me. The US government 
>> can do what ever the hell they like, and there's really not especially 
>> much the US people can do about it. Just like every other country on Earth.
> 
>   There is. They can shoot back.

Oh, sure, like that's *really* going to work.

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Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> The entire country isn't going to resist. Half a dozen zeolots will, the 
> rest will just quietly accept it.

  Clearly you aren't an American.

> >> Really, such arguments sound very, very silly to me. The US government 
> >> can do what ever the hell they like, and there's really not especially 
> >> much the US people can do about it. Just like every other country on Earth.
> > 
> >   There is. They can shoot back.

> Oh, sure, like that's *really* going to work.

  Civil wars erupt even if "it's not *really* going to work" all the time.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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>> The entire country isn't going to resist. Half a dozen zeolots will, the 
>> rest will just quietly accept it.
> 
>   Clearly you aren't an American.

You noticed. :-)

>   Civil wars erupt even if "it's not *really* going to work" all the time.

I am unconvinced that

1. There will be a cival war if the government does something the people 
don't like.

2. Not having guns makes it impossible to force the government to change 
its policy.

This whole idea that "without guns the government will enslave the 
people, but as long as people carry guns the government can be held in 
check" seems utterly ridiculous to me.

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Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> I am unconvinced that

> 1. There will be a cival war if the government does something the people 
> don't like.

  I'm pretty sure there would be a civil war if the US government tried
to appeal the second amendment and confiscate all firearms. That's because,
as I wrote earlier, the second amendment is seen by many Americans as a
safeguard against a totally corrupt government. It gives the people the
power to keep the government in check.

> 2. Not having guns makes it impossible to force the government to change 
> its policy.

  Guns make it easier to keep the government in check. If you suddenly have
a million fully armed people taking over the government, that cannot be
taken lightly.

  (I'm not saying that guns are the *best* way to keep a government in check.
I'm just pointing out what seems to be the case in the US.)

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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Warp wrote:

>   Guns make it easier to keep the government in check.
> 
>   (I'm not saying that guns are the *best* way to keep a government in check.
> I'm just pointing out what seems to be the case in the US.)

And it seems to me that being able to own guns gives the American people 
a nice illusion of safety when in fact they don't really have any.

But hey, fortunately I don't have to live in America. :-)

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Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> And it seems to me that being able to own guns gives the American people 
> a nice illusion of safety when in fact they don't really have any.

  I'm not so sure. As I have said, I don't think the American government
would dare confiscate all firearms. Their economy would plummet and it
would result in countless casualties and property damage.

  And if they don't dare doing that, what else don't they dare doing
because of the same reason? People do have power there.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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