Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> I have a vague recollection of this as well, but I don't think it was 
> planned out in detail.  But originally, it was 9 films, and the first 
> three released were the middle group.

  Given that all six films are basically about Anakin Skywalker, I wonder
what the films 7-9 would have been about. Ewoks?

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 17:43:17 -0200, nemesis wrote:
> 
>> You are obviously full of BS.  Models and renders are friggin' well done
>> -- you can even see sweat in the skin.  The only reason you notice they
>> are CG is because they are moving like no human being could ever move,
>> even with the help of wires.
> 
> I also found the quality of the models to be lacking in the "mass of 
> Smiths" fight, so no, he's not full of BS.  It's just not as impressive 
> as the earlier part of the fights to him (and to me).

I didn't found the quality of the models to be lacking, specially since 
there are loads of them and they are not so close as one to be able to 
see the fine details like this:

http://whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com/vfx/rl_img/vfx_image_10.jpg

(which was bettered by the way for the close up during Revolutions 
superpunch scene)

what I found is that the cloth system used was kinda stiff, combined 
with the super human movements it shows a bit.

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On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 18:35:52 -0200, nemesis wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 17:43:17 -0200, nemesis wrote:
>> 
>>> You are obviously full of BS.  Models and renders are friggin' well
>>> done -- you can even see sweat in the skin.  The only reason you
>>> notice they are CG is because they are moving like no human being
>>> could ever move, even with the help of wires.
>> 
>> I also found the quality of the models to be lacking in the "mass of
>> Smiths" fight, so no, he's not full of BS.  It's just not as impressive
>> as the earlier part of the fights to him (and to me).
> 
> I didn't found the quality of the models to be lacking, specially since
> there are loads of them and they are not so close as one to be able to
> see the fine details like this:
> 
> http://whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com/vfx/rl_img/vfx_image_10.jpg
> 
> (which was bettered by the way for the close up during Revolutions
> superpunch scene)
> 
> what I found is that the cloth system used was kinda stiff, combined
> with the super human movements it shows a bit.

That was part of it for me, but even in the example you've linked to, the 
one on the right has an unnatural crease on his forehead.  It's not a 
*lousy* model, but it's not outstanding to my eye, either.  Not that I 
could make one that was as good, mind - but the one on the right says 
"CG" to me in a way the one on the left doesn't.  The forehead is too 
long as well, and the jawline isn't right.

That was a big part of the issue; I could see Hugo Weaving in the film as 
a non-CG character, and as a CG character, and the differences between 
the two were too obvious.  That's one of the problems they had with this 
film - if you didn't put the real actor up against it, then the model 
looks really good.  But having the actor as a reference in the film makes 
it that much more apparent where the problems in the model are.

The other part for me (other than the cloth effects, which you note) was 
that the superhuman movements didn't have a natural enough feel to them.  
Yes, they're supernatural, but my mind picked up on certain aspects of 
the movements that didn't seem right (it's hard to describe exactly) and 
my brain registered it as "not real".

What constitutes outstanding VFX for me in a live action film is when you 
can't tell what's live action and what's not.  In these particular 
scenes, it was clear what was and wasn't.

You of course may feel differently about it.  My point of view isn't the 
only valid one (nor is yours, I would remind you).

Jim

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On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 15:18:43 -0500, Warp wrote:

> Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>> I have a vague recollection of this as well, but I don't think it was
>> planned out in detail.  But originally, it was 9 films, and the first
>> three released were the middle group.
> 
>   Given that all six films are basically about Anakin Skywalker, I
>   wonder
> what the films 7-9 would have been about. Ewoks?

What I recall was that it was intended to (obviously) cover the post-
empire galaxy; perhaps the rebuilding of the Jedi would have been a major 
part of that.

Jim

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Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 18:35:52 -0200, nemesis wrote:
>> http://whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com/vfx/rl_img/vfx_image_10.jpg
> 
> That was part of it for me, but even in the example you've linked to, the 
> one on the right has an unnatural crease on his forehead.  It's not a 
> *lousy* model, but it's not outstanding to my eye, either.  Not that I 
> could make one that was as good, mind - but the one on the right says 
> "CG" to me in a way the one on the left doesn't.  The forehead is too 
> long as well, and the jawline isn't right.

Exactly, which is a good thing that they are never on close up.  Good 
enough on a distance.  And despite visible flaws, still miles of 
distance from what one may find in any modern game, which don't have 
subsurface scattering or real hair.  That's why I call Andrew's 
assumptions BS.

> The other part for me (other than the cloth effects, which you note) was 
> that the superhuman movements didn't have a natural enough feel to them.  
> Yes, they're supernatural, but my mind picked up on certain aspects of 
> the movements that didn't seem right (it's hard to describe exactly) and 
> my brain registered it as "not real".

Yes, but I can't imagine either how a super being with super strength 
would look like by, say, walking and jumping on top of lots of people 
underneath.  Perhaps it'd look downright... unnatural and cartoonish.

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Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> What I recall was that it was intended to (obviously) cover the post-
> empire galaxy; perhaps the rebuilding of the Jedi would have been a major 
> part of that.

  Why does that sound such a boring idea? The big evil has been defeated,
time to rebuild.

  What would be the confrontation? Construction workers striking because of
poor working conditions?-)

  (OTOH I'm sure some people would say that would be a much more enjoyable
trilogy than episodes 1-3...)

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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Btw, there's one thing I really can't understand.

  Fans love Darth Vader. Fans want Darth Vader (some of the probably in the
double entendre way). But George Lucas outright refuses to give his fans
what they want. It's like Lucas has been infatuated by Anakin Skywalker, but
hates Darth Vader so much that he refuses to make anything related to him
anymore. But why? Why not give fans what they want?

  If I were Lucas, I would try to redeem the negative hype episodes 1-3 got
by making an interquel movie placed between episodes 3 and 4. It would be
all about Darth Vader and it would *not* be a children's movie. Instead, it
would be dark, and Darth Vader would be portrayed as a total badass, just
like the fans want him.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 19:49:52 -0200, nemesis wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 18:35:52 -0200, nemesis wrote:
>>> http://whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com/vfx/rl_img/vfx_image_10.jpg
>> 
>> That was part of it for me, but even in the example you've linked to,
>> the one on the right has an unnatural crease on his forehead.  It's not
>> a *lousy* model, but it's not outstanding to my eye, either.  Not that
>> I could make one that was as good, mind - but the one on the right says
>> "CG" to me in a way the one on the left doesn't.  The forehead is too
>> long as well, and the jawline isn't right.
> 
> Exactly, which is a good thing that they are never on close up.  Good
> enough on a distance.  And despite visible flaws, still miles of
> distance from what one may find in any modern game, which don't have
> subsurface scattering or real hair.  That's why I call Andrew's
> assumptions BS.

They may be for you, but for him and me they're not, they're reasonable 
assumptions.  Good for you that they're good enough to support the 
suspension of disbelief; they're not for me. <shrug>

>> The other part for me (other than the cloth effects, which you note)
>> was that the superhuman movements didn't have a natural enough feel to
>> them. Yes, they're supernatural, but my mind picked up on certain
>> aspects of the movements that didn't seem right (it's hard to describe
>> exactly) and my brain registered it as "not real".
> 
> Yes, but I can't imagine either how a super being with super strength
> would look like by, say, walking and jumping on top of lots of people
> underneath.  Perhaps it'd look downright... unnatural and cartoonish.

Well, your lack of imagination in that matter doesn't impact my brain's 
interpretation of the events, which I found to be not in line with what 
reality would look like in my mind.

Jim

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On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 17:11:56 -0500, Warp wrote:

> Btw, there's one thing I really can't understand.
> 
>   Fans love Darth Vader. Fans want Darth Vader (some of the probably in
>   the
> double entendre way). But George Lucas outright refuses to give his fans
> what they want. It's like Lucas has been infatuated by Anakin Skywalker,
> but hates Darth Vader so much that he refuses to make anything related
> to him anymore. But why? Why not give fans what they want?
> 
>   If I were Lucas, I would try to redeem the negative hype episodes 1-3
>   got
> by making an interquel movie placed between episodes 3 and 4. It would
> be all about Darth Vader and it would *not* be a children's movie.
> Instead, it would be dark, and Darth Vader would be portrayed as a total
> badass, just like the fans want him.

Depending on how it was done, I'd be interested in that as well.  Though 
by the time we get to the end of ep3, the transformation has completely 
taken place.  I have to admit that of the three prequel movies, that part 
was a part that did not disappoint from a story standpoint.

Jim

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On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 16:58:29 -0500, Warp wrote:

> Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>> What I recall was that it was intended to (obviously) cover the post-
>> empire galaxy; perhaps the rebuilding of the Jedi would have been a
>> major part of that.
> 
>   Why does that sound such a boring idea? The big evil has been
>   defeated,
> time to rebuild.

Well, I didn't say it wasn't boring - who knows, maybe a new evil menace 
tries to destroy the Jedi from within during the reconstruction.

>   What would be the confrontation? Construction workers striking because
>   of
> poor working conditions?-)
> 
>   (OTOH I'm sure some people would say that would be a much more
>   enjoyable
> trilogy than episodes 1-3...)

LOL

Jim

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