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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> Darren New wrote:
>
>> I can't think of any programmer that uses something like Notepad to
>> write code.
>
> {...Shuffles back into the corner...}
I know of lots of other types like Andrew who enjoy being miserable
while editing code.
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"Neeum Zawan" <m.n### [at] ieee org> wrote in message
news:4b2ba981@news.povray.org...
> On 12/18/09 01:32, scott wrote:
> Somehow, I've never been sympathetic to this kind of complaint. Maybe
> I'm an "old fart" (who's not that old in age) who remembers the time
> when this was not the default behavior of apps.
It's not a matter of liking this or that. I'm not crazy about driving on the
right or 110V. And it was a bad old time when software did not follow UI
standards - I don't remember having to learn hundereds of different and
incompatible key combinations fondly. Standards are, most of the time,
somewhat arbitrarily established. But them's the standards, and makes life
easier for all if followed.
> From my perspective, the question isn't "Does this conform to the
> Windows interface standard (which may not be that great)?" but "Is it
> really hard to learn?"
Yes it is, and it's hard to retain, when everybody else follows a standard.
If one's life revolves around Blender, that's different, but many
professionals and amateurs alike use several different applications to get
their work done. Switching between them is no fun when they all implement
arbitrary interfaces and try to be overly clever or cute.
> and "Is their choice of deviating from the
> standard efficient?"
No, hardly. No matter how efficient or consistent Esperanto may be, if you
speak Esperanto on your establishment and everybody in the country speaks
English, it's not efficient when you consider the big picture, even if it
might be efficient for those who never leave the office.
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"nemesis" <nam### [at] nospam-gmailcom> wrote in message
news:4b2c0883@news.povray.org...
> Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> > Darren New wrote:
> >> I can't think of any programmer that uses something like Notepad to
> >> write code.
> > {...Shuffles back into the corner...}
> I know of lots of other types like Andrew who enjoy being miserable
> while editing code.
I think he enjoys being miserable.
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>>>> I can't think of any programmer that uses something like Notepad to
>>>> write code.
>
>>> {...Shuffles back into the corner...}
>
>> I know of lots of other types like Andrew who enjoy being miserable
>> while editing code.
>
> I think he enjoys being miserable.
Or rather, sometimes Notepad is the only thing installed. :-P
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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On 12/18/09 14:57, Darren New wrote:
> Neeum Zawan wrote:
>>> Dude, the guys who invented menus did it this way. It has never *not*
>>> been the way to do it. :-)
>>
>> So tell me: How do you right click on a Mac?
>
> What has that to do with what we're talking about?
I was pointing out that it's not that much of a standard.
--
Depend on the rabbit's foot if you will, but remember, it didn't help
the rabbit.
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On 12/18/09 15:39, Nicolas Alvarez wrote:
>> So tell me: How do you right click on a Mac?
>
> You press the right mouse button, if your mouse has one. Or you hold Ctrl
> while clicking.
>
> Or, on modern laptop Macs, you can click while another finger is on the
> trackpad (if that mode is enabled). Or click on the bottom right corner of
> the trackpad area (if that mode is enabled).
Umm...Sure. My point was that using the right mouse button to get a
menu isn't always expected - given that most Mac users (at least that I
know) don't even have a right mouse button.
Of course, perhaps bringing up Macs was a bad idea, since I think
software on it follows standards more rigorously than on Windows.
--
Depend on the rabbit's foot if you will, but remember, it didn't help
the rabbit.
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On 12/18/09 17:58, somebody wrote:
>> Somehow, I've never been sympathetic to this kind of complaint. Maybe
>> I'm an "old fart" (who's not that old in age) who remembers the time
>> when this was not the default behavior of apps.
>
> It's not a matter of liking this or that. I'm not crazy about driving on the
> right or 110V. And it was a bad old time when software did not follow UI
> standards - I don't remember having to learn hundereds of different and
> incompatible key combinations fondly. Standards are, most of the time,
> somewhat arbitrarily established. But them's the standards, and makes life
> easier for all if followed.
None of which is disputed. I'd just add a sentence: "Sometimes life is
made easier if a standard isn't followed".
>> From my perspective, the question isn't "Does this conform to the
>> Windows interface standard (which may not be that great)?" but "Is it
>> really hard to learn?"
>
> Yes it is, and it's hard to retain, when everybody else follows a standard.
Not monolithically. Blender's may suck, but I refuse to take as an
axiom that all such apps that don't follow some aspect of the standard
make learning difficult.
Here's a hint: In many games, the right mouse button has nothing to do
with menus. Few complain about them being hard to learn.
> If one's life revolves around Blender, that's different, but many
I wasn't talking about Blender.
>> and "Is their choice of deviating from the
>> standard efficient?"
>
> No, hardly. No matter how efficient or consistent Esperanto may be, if you
> speak Esperanto on your establishment and everybody in the country speaks
> English, it's not efficient when you consider the big picture, even if it
> might be efficient for those who never leave the office.
Let's not jump to extremes. Learning another language is much more
difficult than small deviations from the standard.
--
Depend on the rabbit's foot if you will, but remember, it didn't help
the rabbit.
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Fredrik Eriksson wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 18:15:05 +0100, Patrick Elliott
> <sel### [at] npgcablecom> wrote:
>>
>> Oh, and what is it with applications that can "unwrap" a mesh to a UV
>> map, but do so either using an ugly form that you can't be precise
>> with (since all the surfaces have curves that prevent it), or a
>> completely flat one, where you can't tell what surface you are
>> *actually* looking at? lol Got to be a better way to do that, even if
>> its just "let me paint some basic colors on this damn thing, then
>> export the mesh *with* the colors, so I can tell what the hell I am
>> doing."
>
> Something like this?
>
> http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Doc:Manual/Materials/Vertex_Paint
>
>
>
Well... Yes and no. Problem here is I want to export the "mesh" UV map,
with the color overlayed, so that when I take it into a more complex
application, which I can use real image editing, etc. on, I can see,
generally, where things where in the 3D version. Closest you can
probably get is to export the vertex paint map, and the mesh map,
separate, then overlay them in the application. Depending on which sort
of export you use though, this isn't going to necessarily work.
Actually, better idea would be something that let me treat the 3D
surface as a canvas, while still *using* the tools from something like
Paintshop Pro. I am sure there is something out there, in the $500-$1000
range that supports this, maybe, but for the rest of us... All you have
is exporting of the edge lines, in one of several forms, and *trying* to
match what ever you are editing on the image to those lines.
Unfortunately, in something like PSP, you are stuck with the flat
version, unless you hand draw everything, because it has no awareness
that the lines define curvature, so you can't bend your textures to fit
the shape. Tools to do that, for the most part, don't exist, except,
again, in the same high-level apps that probably already work with 3D.
Given what I do most 3D in, most of my time is spent making things
"look" like they have more structure than they do, without being *able*
to add real geometry. This puts me in a conundrum. Either I have to
unwrap something into a flat surface, then apply details, which is
frustrating, since its hard to tell which bits you are working with,
or.. a better solution would be some way to take a "real" 3D result,
warped to fit the "shape" I need, then applied that way. Needless to
say, while POVRay's camera system is real neat, it doesn't have a "make
a camera whose lens looks like an entire {insert general shape of the
object needed}. lol I can't think of a good way to manage that, at least
not with anything that has any sort of complexity. A sphere, cylinder,
or other simple object, fine, you just make it reflective, sit the
camera in the middle, with 360 degrees of view, then make the object you
are trying to "copy" have no image. All you get is the reflection. But
something with dips, bumps, or other complex shapes? Just really doesn't
work, in most cases.
--
void main () {
if version = "Vista" {
call slow_by_half();
call DRM_everything();
}
call functional_code();
}
else
call crash_windows();
}
<A HREF='http://www.daz3d.com/index.php?refid=16130551'>Get 3D Models,
3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>
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Patrick Elliott wrote:
> range that supports this, maybe, but for the rest of us... All you have
> is exporting of the edge lines, in one of several forms, and *trying* to
> match what ever you are editing on the image to those lines.
> Unfortunately, in something like PSP, you are stuck with the flat
> version, unless you hand draw everything, because it has no awareness
> that the lines define curvature, so you can't bend your textures to fit
> the shape. Tools to do that, for the most part, don't exist, except,
> again, in the same high-level apps that probably already work with 3D.
>
> Given what I do most 3D in, most of my time is spent making things
> "look" like they have more structure than they do, without being *able*
> to add real geometry. This puts me in a conundrum. Either I have to
> unwrap something into a flat surface, then apply details, which is
> frustrating, since its hard to tell which bits you are working with,
> or..
Some reasonable seam choices plus AO baking seem to do the trick to me.
They make a good work of providing good references for when you begin
editing the UV map later on a bitmap editor.
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On 18-12-2009 21:45, Darren New wrote:
> nemesis wrote:
>> No need for sarcasm, they are obviously tackling common complaints.
>
> Only because earlier it sounded like some Blender aficionados were
> arguing that anyone complaining is just a whiner and it's really not a
> problem after all. I might have been reading into it. :-)
You might ;)
I have been using blender for some time now and I never complained, I
think. For me it does not matter much if something is intuitive or not,
if it is, the key bindings will become reflexes in two weeks, if not:
three. What is the point if you are using it for many years? And yes I
am using the hardcoded alt-mouse movements to turn my 3D objects in
Marlab and that invariably fails.
Ok, that is not completely true. It was my second attempt. First one
failed because I couldn't get long enough motivated. Partly because of
the UI and partly because 3D sculpting is inherently difficult with a
lot of knowledge that got into it to make it simpler. E.g. an edge loop
was not something I was familiar with before that. The main reason,
however, was of course that I did not need it, it was just for fun.
Second time I really needed a 3D mesh manipulation tool.
So, If you need 3D modelling, Blender is OK, with this or a better UI.
If you want to attract a new group of users, changing the UI to comply
to standards developed after the first implementations of Blenders
ancestors is a good idea.
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