>> Sure. But it's still one of the most complex mesh objects I have ever 
>> constructed in all the years I've been playing with mesh editors.
> 
> Try Wings.  Or try going thru a tutorial on Blender, just following the 
> steps without trying to memorize anything, and then try Wings. It's 
> basically the same ideas.  Each takes a bit of time (like, maybe, 6 
> hours) of playing with it to get to the point you're not breaking the 
> model every 5 minutes.

Isn't Wings the one written in Erlang?

I believed I tried it also, and it was similarly non-intuitive to 
operate. (But I don't recall it having any documentation, whereas 
Blender clearly does.) I managed to get a cube and move the verticies 
around a bit, but I'm not sure how you'd do anything useful with it.

>> I haven't come across this in the documentation yet, but what does 
>> Blender mean by "grab"?
> 
> Translate.  Except they already used the T key, so they called it grab.

Fail.

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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> Isn't Wings the one written in Erlang?

Yes.

> I believed I tried it also, and it was similarly non-intuitive to 
> operate. 

You know, I thought they were all unintuitive until I played with it a bit 
and figured out the operations. Really, go thru (say) the gingerbread man 
tutorial, or the "create a blue alien guy" tutorial, and then suddenly it 
seems to make sense.

> (But I don't recall it having any documentation, whereas 
> Blender clearly does.) 

It has an entire 130-page textbook it comes with.

> I managed to get a cube and move the verticies 
> around a bit, but I'm not sure how you'd do anything useful with it.

Uh, read the docs? :-)

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   Human nature dictates that toothpaste tubes spend
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Darren New escreveu:
> nemesis wrote:
>> That's been precisely tackled in Blender 2.5 complete interface overhaul.
> 
> Because, you know, the UI was so well done in earlier versions, and 
> nobody ever complained about it. :-)

No need for sarcasm, they are obviously tackling common complaints.

I'm glad though that vim doesn't get too many whinning users about its 
quirks that just work right once you use them.

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nemesis wrote:
> No need for sarcasm, they are obviously tackling common complaints.

Only because earlier it sounded like some Blender aficionados were arguing 
that anyone complaining is just a whiner and it's really not a problem after 
all. I might have been reading into it. :-)

> I'm glad though that vim doesn't get too many whinning users about its 
> quirks that just work right once you use them.

Oh, they do. The difference, I think, is that the quirks in VI aren't 
arbitrary and unnecessary. :-)  I think if you hung out on an elisp 
programming group, you'd hear lots of flamage of vi.

There are several things VI does (and always has) that bug me, but if anyone 
changed it, I'd be completely screwed, because I've trained myself to avoid 
the problem. (Sort of like what would happen if you put the control key back 
where it belongs at this point.)

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   Human nature dictates that toothpaste tubes spend
   much longer being almost empty than almost full.

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On 12/18/09 13:20, Darren New wrote:
> Neeum Zawan wrote:
>> who remembers the time when this was not the default behavior of apps.
>
> Dude, the guys who invented menus did it this way. It has never *not*
> been the way to do it. :-)

	So tell me: How do you right click on a Mac?

>> From my perspective, the question isn't "Does this conform to the
>> Windows interface standard (which may not be that great)?" but "Is it
>> really hard to learn?" and "Is their choice of deviating from the
>> standard efficient?"
>
> Those are subjective. Following the Windows standard makes it easier to
> learn for windows users.

	Look, I agree Blender's interface is horrible. No arguments there. But 
I don't feel deviating from a standard is bad in and of itself. Learning 
a slightly different interface is not a major deficit.

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On 12/18/09 14:45, Darren New wrote:
> Oh, they do. The difference, I think, is that the quirks in VI aren't
> arbitrary and unnecessary. :-) I think if you hung out on an elisp

	Hence the two questions in my other post. ;-)


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On 12/18/09 13:22, Darren New wrote:
> Neeum Zawan wrote:
>> On 12/17/09 10:22, Darren New wrote:
>>> But yeah, you have to use it, and when you stop it goes away again,
>>> because there's no mnemonic way of using it. (Unlike wordstar, whose
>>> keyboard commands I still remember 30 years after I stopped using it.)
>>
>> Really? In 1979?
>
> Yeah. I used it from 79 to about 84 or so.

	Fair enough ;-)

	What did you use before Wordstar, though. If WS was your first major 
word processor, that may be why you remember the keybindings.


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Neeum Zawan wrote:
>> Dude, the guys who invented menus did it this way. It has never *not*
>> been the way to do it. :-)
> 
>     So tell me: How do you right click on a Mac?

What has that to do with what we're talking about?

>     Look, I agree Blender's interface is horrible. No arguments there. 
> But I don't feel deviating from a standard is bad in and of itself. 
> Learning a slightly different interface is not a major deficit.

Agreed on all three points.  If it's designed for professionals and hard to 
use without practice, sure. I can't think of any programmer that uses 
something like Notepad to write code.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   Human nature dictates that toothpaste tubes spend
   much longer being almost empty than almost full.

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Neeum Zawan wrote:
>     What did you use before Wordstar, though. If WS was your first major 
> word processor, that may be why you remember the keybindings.

No, it's because they were actually intuitive. I used about three other 
screen editors at the same time, but wordstar is what stuck.

Heh. Googling for it shows that KDE and EMacs and a number of others support 
wordstar keyboard bindings still.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   Human nature dictates that toothpaste tubes spend
   much longer being almost empty than almost full.

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Darren New wrote:

> I can't think of any programmer that uses something like Notepad to write code.

{...Shuffles back into the corner...}

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