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From: Orchid XP v8
Subject: Re: An annoying thing in Windows (which mostly doesn't happen inLinux)
Date: 20 Sep 2009 13:51:39
Message: <4ab66bab$1@news.povray.org>
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Darren New wrote:
> if you compile and install from source, it's not going to bump
> the use count on your libraries.
Excellent fun. Compile something from source, and the package manager
doesn't know you have it, and tries to install it again.
Weirdly, most software you compile from scratch has an uncanny ability
to figure out what libraries are installed, no matter whether you're
using RPM or DEB or EMERGE or...
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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From: Orchid XP v8
Subject: Re: An annoying thing in Windows (which mostly doesn't happen inLinux)
Date: 20 Sep 2009 13:54:57
Message: <4ab66c71@news.povray.org>
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>> I had that.
>>
>> Then I discovered that it can't delete the IE web cache. (Due to some
>> kind of weirdness with it being system and hidden or something like
>> that.)
>
> Well, you do have to turn that off. "attrib -h -s junkdir /s"
Yeah, I think I tried that too. Basically there was something or other
"magical" about that folder. Windows Explorer could delete it, but from
the DOS box is was unclear whether it existed, couldn't quite be
deleted, etc. I don't know if it was the attributes or the desktop.ini
file or just a magic path hard-coded into the system or what... Tcl
killed it without difficulty though. Haskell too. (All the more amusing,
since Haskell is running under a Unix emulator...)
>> Even built a little Tk GUI for it, so you can see how much longer it's
>> going to take. (Deleting 0.8GB of web cache takes a while...)
>
> You can do this with "disk cleanup" tho.
Not programatically. And not on a roaming profiles folder on the server.
> Damn, you need a new job.
Really?! o_O
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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From: Darren New
Subject: Re: An annoying thing in Windows (which mostly doesn't happen inLinux)
Date: 20 Sep 2009 14:42:05
Message: <4ab6777d$1@news.povray.org>
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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> Darren New wrote:
>
>> if you compile and install from source, it's not going to bump the use
>> count on your libraries.
>
> Excellent fun. Compile something from source, and the package manager
> doesn't know you have it, and tries to install it again.
Or you get to make up a package file by hand.
The worst I ever dealth with was a package that needed a very specific
version of Boost, and since Linux doesn't do the whole "side by side" thing
very well,
> Weirdly, most software you compile from scratch has an uncanny ability
> to figure out what libraries are installed, no matter whether you're
> using RPM or DEB or EMERGE or...
It's not that uncanny. It tries to compile the code, and if the compiler
returns error messages, it knows why.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
I ordered stamps from Zazzle that read "Place Stamp Here".
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From: Warp
Subject: Re: An annoying thing in Windows (which mostly doesn't happen inLinux)
Date: 20 Sep 2009 14:53:51
Message: <4ab67a3f@news.povray.org>
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Orchid XP v8 <voi### [at] dev null> wrote:
> Weirdly, most software you compile from scratch has an uncanny ability
> to figure out what libraries are installed, no matter whether you're
> using RPM or DEB or EMERGE or...
Most libraries are installed in a directory which the compiler directly
checks when you tell it to link that library in. Thus to check whether the
library is in the system it's enough to try and compile something which
tries to link that library and see if it succeeds.
Moreover, all libraries are installed in the same few semi-standard system
directories in all popular Unix-based operating systems, so even if the
compiler is not used to check for the existence of the library, it's just a
matter of looking for them in those established directories.
--
- Warp
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From: Darren New
Subject: Re: An annoying thing in Windows (which mostly doesn't happen inLinux)
Date: 20 Sep 2009 14:54:42
Message: <4ab67a72$1@news.povray.org>
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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>> You can do this with "disk cleanup" tho.
> Not programatically. And not on a roaming profiles folder on the server.
True. Not without COM, and not if the profiles aren't logged in.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
I ordered stamps from Zazzle that read "Place Stamp Here".
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From: Warp
Subject: Re: An annoying thing in Windows (which mostly doesn't happen inLinux)
Date: 20 Sep 2009 14:55:13
Message: <4ab67a91@news.povray.org>
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Darren New <dne### [at] san rr com> wrote:
> nemesis wrote:
> > I understood your point. Hand-compiled and installed povray or any
> > other is of no concern to the package manager. Thus, it'll uninstall
> > libpng without caring if hand-compiled povray uses it or not. It
> > doesn't even know hand-compiled povray exists. Nor should it.
> "It'll break your code, *and* it *should*!" Ah, the mindset you can get
> away with when writing non-commercial software. :-)
What's the package manager going to do? Scan the entire system for
executables which might be using that library? Sure, it could do that,
if you want to wait.
--
- Warp
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From: Darren New
Subject: Re: An annoying thing in Windows (which mostly doesn't happen inLinux)
Date: 20 Sep 2009 16:26:25
Message: <4ab68ff1$1@news.povray.org>
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Warp wrote:
> What's the package manager going to do? Scan the entire system for
> executables which might be using that library? Sure, it could do that,
> if you want to wait.
Even that wouldn't necessarily work. Note I didn't say there was an easy fix
for the problem. I was mocking the attitude that since there isn't an *easy*
fix, then it *should* break. I.e., that the attitude is "this should be
broken" rather than "this is regrettably broken."
But sure, if you uninstall stuff and it leaves libraries around, I can
imagine a button you could push that says "Scan all the executables right
now and tell me what libraries are installed that no executable references."
Along with "tell me the last time someone loaded this library." Then you
could clean things up that stopped being used when you deleted some package
six months ago.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
I ordered stamps from Zazzle that read "Place Stamp Here".
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From: clipka
Subject: Re: An annoying thing in Windows (which mostly doesn't happen inLinux)
Date: 20 Sep 2009 18:49:44
Message: <4ab6b188$1@news.povray.org>
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Darren New schrieb:
>> So, Windows is actually a lot better at this... /theoretically/.
>
> I wouldn't say that. It's just that the installer for WIndows comes with
> the program. If I compile something from scratch on Windows and it uses
> some DLL, I'm not going to be able to ensure that DLL doesn't get
> deleted out of the system either.
Yes, but I *can* roll my own installer to do it.
And it's standardized. It's not like I'd need to make an installer for
Debian, another for Ubuntu, yet another for what-have-you-not...
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From: clipka
Subject: Re: An annoying thing in Windows (which mostly doesn't happen inLinux)
Date: 20 Sep 2009 19:03:19
Message: <4ab6b4b7$1@news.povray.org>
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Orchid XP v8 schrieb:
>
> Weirdly, most software you compile from scratch has an uncanny ability
> to figure out what libraries are installed, no matter whether you're
> using RPM or DEB or EMERGE or...
Have you ever had a look how that actually works?
Just look at the "configure" script for POV-Ray for an example.
That script actually goes ahead and generates source code for tiny test
programs, and checks if they compile, link and run. For instance, if the
script manages to compile and run a program that tries to call
png_access_version_number(), it knows that libpng is there - and also
what version number it is.
Of course the script first verifies that the shell is compatible with
the command syntax used in the script, goes on to find out what compiler
to use, and so on...
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From: Darren New
Subject: Re: An annoying thing in Windows (which mostly doesn't happen inLinux)
Date: 20 Sep 2009 20:14:39
Message: <4ab6c56f@news.povray.org>
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clipka wrote:
> Yes, but I *can* roll my own installer to do it.
And you can in Debian too, at least. It's just annoying to have to do it,
but that's what you get when you are compiling source. Basically, you make
up a fake package description and say "here, I just installed this."
> And it's standardized. It's not like I'd need to make an installer for
> Debian, another for Ubuntu, yet another for what-have-you-not...
Nah. One for XP, one for Vista, one for Win7... ;-)
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
I ordered stamps from Zazzle that read "Place Stamp Here".
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