"Mike Raiford" <"m[raiford]!at"@gmail.com> schreef in bericht 
news:4a719598$1@news.povray.org...
> Sometimes, just reading the stories makes me wonder ... maybe God is the 
> evil one ... I mean, he basically sent the Jews on a wild goose chase... 
> :)

If you are in for a bit of SF, you should read Philip Pullman's "His Dark 
Materials" trilogy (Northern Lights; the Subtle Knife; The Amber Spyglass). 
Very entertaining and proposing an interesting view on the nature of God.

Thomas

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On 1-8-2009 16:16, David H. Burns wrote:
> Probably, but how real are their fears. There are certainly a lot of 
> "practicing atheists"
> (i.e people who live as if they believed nothing) 

I strongly object to that. Atheists believe (i.e. know) that no God 
exists. You do have people who believe nothing, but they are not 
referred to as atheists nor agnostics for that matter.

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Thomas de Groot wrote:
> Very entertaining and proposing an interesting view on the nature of God.

I found these to be tedious and silly, myself. It wasn't an interesting view 
on the nature of God, IMO. There was still all the unexplained supernatural 
nonsense with a token toss of "science" into the mix.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "We'd like you to back-port all the changes in 2.0
    back to version 1.0."
   "We've done that already. We call it 2.0."

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Patrick Elliott wrote:
> Darren New wrote:
>> I think atheists can probably get along 99% even in the worst areas if 
>> they just STFU and let the majority have their way, instead of 
>> complaining about prayer in school and "In God We Trust" on government 
>> buildings and such.
>>
> Ah, yes. Jews should do the same, and Pagans, and well..

I didn't say they *should*. I said they *can*. I.e., in contrast with being 
black 100 years ago, where you couldn't avoid the racism by faking it.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "We'd like you to back-port all the changes in 2.0
    back to version 1.0."
   "We've done that already. We call it 2.0."

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David H. Burns wrote:
> Darren New wrote:
>> Warp wrote:
>>>   Is it true that there are "closet atheists" in many parts of the US?
>>
>> Yes. Lots of places, especially in the south (known as the "bible 
>> belt") there will be tremendous discrimination against atheists, to 
>> the point of being harassed out of town. (I don't know about "many 
>> parts," mind. Just the very religious parts.)
> 
> Yes the "south" is swamp of hatred, ignorance, stupidity, peopled by 
> benighted morons
> who are capable of the most heinous crimes for religion or any other 
> reason.

Why are you taking offense? Are you claiming there isn't an area generally 
referred to as "the bible belt"? Or that it isn't in the south? Or that 
there aren't many places that discriminate against atheists? Or that there 
are proportionally more in the south than the north?  I may be mistaken 
about that latter one, but I'm just basing it on the news I read.

If you're taking offense at true statements, then you're doing it wrong.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "We'd like you to back-port all the changes in 2.0
    back to version 1.0."
   "We've done that already. We call it 2.0."

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andrel wrote:
> On 1-8-2009 16:16, David H. Burns wrote:
>> Probably, but how real are their fears. There are certainly a lot of 
>> "practicing atheists"
>> (i.e people who live as if they believed nothing) 
> 
> I strongly object to that. Atheists believe (i.e. know) that no God 
> exists. You do have people who believe nothing, but they are not 
> referred to as atheists nor agnostics for that matter.
Wouldn't even go that far for most of us. But, depends on your 
definition of "believe". If you mean, in the sense, that "I believe 
there is almost no chance I will spontaneously win the Australian 
lottery.", you are likely correct. I have no idea "if" such a thing 
exists, and even if it did, it would be hard to win, given that I don't 
live there, and haven't bought a ticket. If it does, then... there is a 
idiotically slim chance that someone might drop the winning ticket in 
front of me, in the parking lot, at work, because they happened to be 
visiting, while on vacation. Now, if you where to ask, "What are the 
odds of you winning the Lilliputian lotto?", then I would say *zero*, 
since Lilliput is a made up part of a silly book, and is in no way, 
shape, or form, part of the real world. I.e., could there be a god? I 
have no idea, but I place the odds very low, given the general lack of 
any evidence, and the fact that everything that is presented as such is 
better explained by something else. Does any "specific" god, as 
described in someone's theology exist? Absolutely *not*, for the same 
reasons.

-- 
void main () {

     if version = "Vista" {
       call slow_by_half();
       call DRM_everything();
     }
     call functional_code();
   }
   else
     call crash_windows();
}

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Darren New wrote:
> Patrick Elliott wrote:
>> Darren New wrote:
>>> I think atheists can probably get along 99% even in the worst areas 
>>> if they just STFU and let the majority have their way, instead of 
>>> complaining about prayer in school and "In God We Trust" on 
>>> government buildings and such.
>>>
>> Ah, yes. Jews should do the same, and Pagans, and well..
> 
> I didn't say they *should*. I said they *can*. I.e., in contrast with 
> being black 100 years ago, where you couldn't avoid the racism by faking 
> it.
> 
Hmm. Point taken.

-- 
void main () {
   If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
     if version = "Vista" {
       call slow_by_half();
       call DRM_everything();
     }
     call functional_code();
   }
   else
     call crash_windows();
}

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3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>

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andrel wrote:
> On 1-8-2009 16:16, David H. Burns wrote:
>> Probably, but how real are their fears. There are certainly a lot of 
>> "practicing atheists"
>> (i.e people who live as if they believed nothing) 
> 
> I strongly object to that. Atheists believe (i.e. know) that no God 
> exists. You do have people who believe nothing, but they are not 
> referred to as atheists nor agnostics for that matter.

No offense intended. That's why I put the the phrase in quotes; perhaps,
Non-Believers would be a better term for those who believe nothing --but 
that
term might be misread too. :)

  "Believe" and "know" are not synonyms. :)

David

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On 2-8-2009 22:15, David H. Burns wrote:
> andrel wrote:
>> On 1-8-2009 16:16, David H. Burns wrote:
>>> Probably, but how real are their fears. There are certainly a lot of 
>>> "practicing atheists"
>>> (i.e people who live as if they believed nothing) 
>>
>> I strongly object to that. Atheists believe (i.e. know) that no God 
>> exists. You do have people who believe nothing, but they are not 
>> referred to as atheists nor agnostics for that matter.
> 
> No offense intended. That's why I put the the phrase in quotes; perhaps,
> Non-Believers would be a better term for those who believe nothing --but 
> that
> term might be misread too. :)
> 
>  "Believe" and "know" are not synonyms. :)

Depends. A believer "knows", he/she will often deny believing as that 
suggests that there is another option. I know that no god exists, but at 
the same time acknowledge that others know that God does exist.
An outsider who does not share the same believe/knowledge may classify 
it as (merely) a believe, for the believer it is knowledge.
So whether it are synonyms or not depends on the observer.
(I am aware of the parallels with the evolution as (merely) a theory).

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Darren New wrote:
> David H. Burns wrote:
>> Darren New wrote:
>>> Warp wrote:
>>>>   Is it true that there are "closet atheists" in many parts of the US?
>>>
>>> Yes. Lots of places, especially in the south (known as the "bible 
>>> belt") there will be tremendous discrimination against atheists, to 
>>> the point of being harassed out of town. (I don't know about "many 
>>> parts," mind. Just the very religious parts.)
>>
>> Yes the "south" is swamp of hatred, ignorance, stupidity, peopled by 
>> benighted morons
>> who are capable of the most heinous crimes for religion or any other 
>> reason.
> 
> Why are you taking offense? 

It's prejudice I take offense at -- though maybe "disgusted" may be a better
term than "offended" to describe my reaction. But I probably should have 
resisted
  the temptation to reply -- or just repeated the Kristofferson quote I 
used earlier. :)
Are you claiming there isn't an area
> generally referred to as "the bible belt"? Or that it isn't in the
> south? 
"Bible Belt" is a media term, pejorative and emotive, with no 
descriptive value.
Or that there aren't many places that discriminate against
> atheists? Or that there are proportionally more in the south than the 
> north? 

My experience leads me to doubt both of these statements. I've never 
seen such
discrimination. Off course I have heard and read people preach and rave 
against atheists
  and against christians, and against many other beliefs. But preaching 
and raving aren't
especially southern phenomena.
  I may be mistaken about that latter one, but I'm just basing it
> on the news I read.

What one reads in the "news" depends on what news one chooses to read.
To my mind, none of it is to be trusted too far.

David :)

I

> 
> If you're taking offense at true statements, then you're doing it wrong.
> 

I

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