>> I still think my point stands though: Even the most lowly position 
>> listed is almost 2x my current salary.
> 
> Everyone here knew that already, you've told us many times.

I've told you what I earn. I had no idea what anybody else earns...

>> Unfortunately, the tiny handful of programmer jobs I've found have all 
>> been the "you are the entire development team" type.
> 
> What's the problem with that, it sounds way more interesting than "sit 
> here and program what I tell you to" for the rest of your life.  
> Besides, you might find out that you actually really enjoy some other 
> part of the job (eg design, testing, planning etc), and if you are just 
> doing a single task you are easily replaceable (and hence not likely to 
> earn as much).

You have a point of course, but I'd prefer a job that I can actually do 
over a job where I make lots of money. Also, requirements gathering is 
an unsolvable problem, so I want to avoid that to the maximum extent 
possible. (Let's face it, the customer never has any clue what they 
actually want, and by the time you make it they'll have completely 
changed their mind anyway, and they'll simply never be happy no matter 
what you do.) Personally, I prefer knowing exactly what I'm supposed to 
be doing. It beats having to guess...

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Invisible wrote:
> Also, requirements gathering is 
> an unsolvable problem, so I want to avoid that to the maximum extent 
> possible. 

No, it's actually a lot of fun. Very frustrating, but a lot of fun.

The trick is to know that they'll change their mind, and hence (a) not take 
it all too seriously and (b) don't believe anything they say.

It's a very human-to-human kind of job, which I actually guess you'd 
probably be pretty good at.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   Insanity is a small city on the western
   border of the State of Mind.

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>> Also, requirements gathering is an unsolvable problem, so I want to 
>> avoid that to the maximum extent possible. 
> 
> No, it's actually a lot of fun. Very frustrating, but a lot of fun.

These are muturally exclusive.

> It's a very human-to-human kind of job, which I actually guess you'd 
> probably be pretty good at.

Sure; given that interacting with humans is the thing I fail at most 
spectacularly.

And you think I wanted to be a programmer WHY...? :-P

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> I've told you what I earn. I had no idea what anybody else earns...

I think last time you posted your salary everybody told you that sort of job 
should be paid way more.

> (Let's face it, the customer never has any clue what they actually want,

Funny, the customers I have worked with know exactly what they want, usually 
slighty more than they know any supplier can manage to encourage development 
and push the technology forwards.

> and by the time you make it they'll have completely changed their mind 
> anyway,

Yes that happens sometimes, you just have to live with it, it's part of the 
job.  Hey customers even *cancel* projects after you've spent several months 
working hard and you get nothing back for that work.

> and they'll simply never be happy no matter what you do.)

Of course not, if they were then another unhappy customer would come along 
and force you to work harder and make a superior product :-)

> Personally, I prefer knowing exactly what I'm supposed to be doing.

Most managers would prefer an employee who can think for themselves rather 
than needing to have everything explained to them like a baby.

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Invisible wrote:
>> No, it's actually a lot of fun. Very frustrating, but a lot of fun.
> These are muturally exclusive.

Only if you take it seriously. You'd think being scared and having fun are 
mutually exclusive, until you go on a roller coaster.

>> It's a very human-to-human kind of job, which I actually guess you'd 
>> probably be pretty good at.
> 
> Sure; given that interacting with humans is the thing I fail at most 
> spectacularly.

I disagree. I think initiating social interactions is something you might 
have trouble with. Being assigned to spend a day talking to a guy about what 
he needs? I suspect you might find that a lot easier.

> And you think I wanted to be a programmer WHY...? :-P

Sadly, it doesn't work that way.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   Insanity is a small city on the western
   border of the State of Mind.

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>>> No, it's actually a lot of fun. Very frustrating, but a lot of fun.
>> These are muturally exclusive.
> 
> Only if you take it seriously. You'd think being scared and having fun 
> are mutually exclusive, until you go on a roller coaster.

...and that's why I don't go on roller coasters? :-P

>>> It's a very human-to-human kind of job, which I actually guess you'd 
>>> probably be pretty good at.
>>
>> Sure; given that interacting with humans is the thing I fail at most 
>> spectacularly.
> 
> I disagree. I think initiating social interactions is something you 
> might have trouble with. Being assigned to spend a day talking to a guy 
> about what he needs? I suspect you might find that a lot easier.

Somehow, being threatened, harassed and bullied until I cave in and give 
the customer what they want for free doesn't strike me as my idea of a 
fun job.

>> And you think I wanted to be a programmer WHY...? :-P
> 
> Sadly, it doesn't work that way.

What are you saying? That the job I'm looking for doesn't exist or 
something?

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>> I've told you what I earn. I had no idea what anybody else earns...
> 
> I think last time you posted your salary everybody told you that sort of 
> job should be paid way more.

"way more" is pretty vague. This thing gives me hard numbers. Sure, 
probably somewhat arbitrary numbers, but numbers none the less.

>> Personally, I prefer knowing exactly what I'm supposed to be doing.
> 
> Most managers would prefer an employee who can think for themselves 
> rather than needing to have everything explained to them like a baby.

I, on the other hand, consider it reasonable to be told when I'm 
supposed to be doing, rather than trying to guess. I'm not a mind reader.

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> I, on the other hand, consider it reasonable to be told when I'm supposed 
> to be doing, rather than trying to guess.

You don't guess, you decide intelligently what to do.  Imagine if everyone 
in your company had the same outlook, then the guy at the very top would 
need to decide exactly what each single person in the company should be 
doing :-)

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> Somehow, being threatened, harassed and bullied until I cave in and give 
> the customer what they want for free doesn't strike me as my idea of a fun 
> job.

Don't you have commercial/sales guys who sort out the price of things?  If 
I'm with a customer and they start talking about costs I just tell them I 
only do the Engineering work and they'll have to speak to X to sort out the 
price :-)

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scott wrote:
>> I, on the other hand, consider it reasonable to be told when I'm 
>> supposed to be doing, rather than trying to guess.
> 
> You don't guess, you decide intelligently what to do.  Imagine if 
> everyone in your company had the same outlook, then the guy at the very 
> top would need to decide exactly what each single person in the company 
> should be doing :-)

At one extreme, you say "do whatever the hell you want", and not much 
happens. At the other extreme, you have people micromanaging your time, 
telling you how to do every minute detail. Basically, if my boss has to 
tell me how to implement each line of code, it would be vastly quicker 
for him to just implement it himself.

There has to be a happy medium somewhere in the middle.

What I am saying is that I expect a little bit more guidence than "go 
build a stock control system. Make it control stock." I don't think 
that's unreasonable.

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