What Darren said.  Again, stop running yourself down.  You enjoy your 
music, so keep with it.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

Mueen Nawaz wrote:
>     Because they usually hang around smart people. Classic case: A smart 
> graduate student feeling he's worthless.

That too. I often mentioned how dumb some people were, and my wife never 
believed me. It wasn't until we got to where we were buying something for 
$12, with 60% off, and the lady at the register with the calculator couldn't 
figure out whether to charge us $5 or $7 that my wife finally twigged that 
there really are people who aren't too bright.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   Insanity is a small city on the western
   border of the State of Mind.

Post a reply to this message

Invisible escreveu:
> My hypothesis: I'm actually not very intelligent at all. But because I 
> have no life and I'm too stupid to get bored, I make up for intelligence 
> by persistence.
> 
> Basically I'm the sort of sad loser who will spend 4 hours trying to 
> work out something, when normal people would give up and go do something 
> productive.

Like getting laid?  If mankind depended on such people for progress, 
we'd still be living on hunting and being hunted -- they were very 
needed indeed for repopulating after the tribe was slaughtered by lions. 
  Astute, observing, persistent people are needed for truly getting 
anywhere beyond basic wilderness.

Who knows?  Maybe those 4 hours on deriving algebra theorems will give 
you some clue about some obscure math property?

> If I were *actually* intelligent it would only take 4 
> minutes to work out.

That's a lie:
http://creatingminds.org/quotes/effort.htm

an excerpt:



spare me if you don't know the guy.

> In a directly related mannar, I'm beginning to realise that I'm not 
> actually very good at playing music either. Even the simplest keyboard 
> exercises baffle me. It seems that I can play the Widor Toccata, not so 
> much because of my vast skill, but because I've expended a ridiculous 
> amoung of time practising it. A *geniunely* talented musician would 
> probably pick it up in a few minutes.

*Genuinely* talented musicians like, say, Liszt or Mozart, began to play 
keyboard very early on their lifes, before they even learned to read. 
They were downright forced by their parents to be prodigious child.

So, if you have not been training 8 hours a day since you were 3 or 4, 
don't get pissed at your parents for not being hard enough...

Post a reply to this message

On Wed, 10 Jun 2009 13:50:49 -0300, nemesis wrote:

> They
> were downright forced by their parents to be prodigious child.

There also has been research recently (I heard about on the radio) that 
also suggests that there is an innate ability, probably relating to the 
way the brain processes sound.  If Mozart's brain hadn't worked the way 
it did, he might've been a mediocre musician.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

Jim Henderson escreveu:
> On Wed, 10 Jun 2009 13:50:49 -0300, nemesis wrote:
> 
>> They
>> were downright forced by their parents to be prodigious child.
> 
> There also has been research recently (I heard about on the radio) that 
> also suggests that there is an innate ability, probably relating to the 
> way the brain processes sound.  If Mozart's brain hadn't worked the way 
> it did, he might've been a mediocre musician.

I'm not at all opposed to the view that people are born with innate 
skills.  The account by Liszt parents and professors is that the kid was 
simply in awe with the piano from a very early age and naturally went on 
to try it by himself, not as pressed on as Mozart.

In any case, innate skill just make it easier, not that trainining is 
not necessary.  Nor that someone lacking such innate skills will never 
be able to gain proficient mastery by training alone.

also, I was trying to cheer up our friend... :P

-- 
a game sig: http://tinyurl.com/d3rxz9

Post a reply to this message

On Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:06:08 -0300, nemesis wrote:

> Jim Henderson escreveu:
>> On Wed, 10 Jun 2009 13:50:49 -0300, nemesis wrote:
>> 
>>> They
>>> were downright forced by their parents to be prodigious child.
>> 
>> There also has been research recently (I heard about on the radio) that
>> also suggests that there is an innate ability, probably relating to the
>> way the brain processes sound.  If Mozart's brain hadn't worked the way
>> it did, he might've been a mediocre musician.
> 
> I'm not at all opposed to the view that people are born with innate
> skills.  The account by Liszt parents and professors is that the kid was
> simply in awe with the piano from a very early age and naturally went on
> to try it by himself, not as pressed on as Mozart.
> 
> In any case, innate skill just make it easier, not that trainining is
> not necessary.  Nor that someone lacking such innate skills will never
> be able to gain proficient mastery by training alone.

Well, that's hard to say.  One of the questions that is asked of 
comedians quite frequently (I've heard James Lipton ask it many times on 
Inside the Actor's Studio) is whether comedy is innate or can be 
learned.  The general consensus seems to be that there's something 
innate, and if you don't have it, you can't be an effective comedian.

Some might cite Beethoven as a counterexample, since he was deaf, but he 
wasn't always deaf.  He learned to play and compose music before he lost 
his hearing.

But the research in question wasn't just saying it was innate skill, but 
that there may be physiological reasons why a very talented musician can 
do what they do.

> also, I was trying to cheer up our friend... :P

Oh, yes, I understand that.  And having seen his playing, I think he has 
got some skill, but he also has this "instant gratification" need (my 
stepson has this, as does my wife, for that matter) that is really quite 
unrealistic for 99.999% of the population.  Not everyone is a Mozart, for 
most professional musicians, it only comes with a lot of work.  A Mozart 
or Lizst is extremely rare.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

Jim Henderson escreveu:
> Oh, yes, I understand that.  And having seen his playing, I think he has 
> got some skill, but he also has this "instant gratification" need (my 
> stepson has this, as does my wife, for that matter) that is really quite 
> unrealistic for 99.999% of the population.  Not everyone is a Mozart, for 
> most professional musicians, it only comes with a lot of work.  A Mozart 
> or Lizst is extremely rare.

Excellent point.  Instant gratification it is.  A side-effect of living 
in a consumerist society I believe.  Kinda like a perpetual hunger...

-- 
a game sig: http://tinyurl.com/d3rxz9

Post a reply to this message

On Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:25:58 -0300, nemesis wrote:

> Excellent point.  Instant gratification it is.  A side-effect of living
> in a consumerist society I believe.  Kinda like a perpetual hunger...

Yep.  And I think most people are susceptible to it - heck, I know it's 
the reason I haven't picked up my violin in several years (well, that and 
I need about $400 of work done on it) - I'd have to work to get the 
skills back and wouldn't be able to play the stuff I was playing when I 
stopped.  Doing scales is no fun, but it would be a necessary part of 
starting up again.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On 06/10/09 11:40, Darren New wrote:
> Mueen Nawaz wrote:
>> Because they usually hang around smart people. Classic case: A smart
>> graduate student feeling he's worthless.
>
> That too. I often mentioned how dumb some people were, and my wife never
> believed me. It wasn't until we got to where we were buying something
> for $12, with 60% off, and the lady at the register with the calculator
> couldn't figure out whether to charge us $5 or $7 that my wife finally
> twigged that there really are people who aren't too bright.

	Your wife's expectations are too high.

	I just point people to Verizon Math.

	Or a mechanical engineering prof from whom I took a course. He kept 
insisting that mixing units in calculations is fundamentally wrong, and 
can never give a correct answer.

	Even if you're consistent in how you do it.

-- 
"Hex Dump" - Where Witches put used Curses?


                     /\  /\               /\  /
                    /  \/  \ u e e n     /  \/  a w a z
                        >>>>>>mue### [at] nawazorg<<<<<<
                                    anl

Post a reply to this message

Invisible wrote:
> Lots of people seem to think I'm a really clever guy.
> 

So you're asking if being able to do mathy/techy stuff makes you 
*really* clever. Maybe. I do know some guys with poor math and language 
skills who have incredible aptitude for achieving what they want in life.

I'll agree with you that in a way you are dumb because you don't seem 
very happy. From what I can tell, you are an extreme extrovert who isn't 
very effective at getting what he wants from people. A "smart" extrovert 
would have a good sense of how to please/manipulate/whatever the people 
around him.

Organ playing without aptitude and mastery of unpopular programming 
languages are dead ends - especially socially. A lot of people spend 
their time on dead-end paths. Are they dumb, or do they just enjoy being 
there? I'll have to examine that question more closely next time I find 
myself there.

  -Shay

Post a reply to this message