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Darren New wrote:
> nemesis wrote:
>> I'm just saying there that "The incredibles" has a very similar plot
>> to Watchmen
>
> No, you're saying Incredible was *inspired* by Watchmen, not just similar.
>
> You would need to show that Brad Bird, for example, was aware of
> Watchmen and knew the plot when he was making the Incredibles, as a
> minimum.
How could he not be aware of this classic? You know Alan Moore was
featured in a Simpsons episode? You know Brad Bird was creative
consultant to the Simpsons? No, I don't know if the episode is from
before or after he left, what I do know is:
* a super-hero world where heroes are banned is by itself a very
non-conventional plot for a super-hero story (at least until Watchmen
got it done)
* the plot is kicked off when an older hero goes missing (and is found
to be dead)
* the villain threatens the world with a fake attack so that he can be
"heroic"
* the threat is a huge, monocular monster with tentacles
* the monster was raised in a remote Island
* the dead hero was killed because of what the plans he uncovered in the
Island
* cape is bad for your health
If that's not enough for a link, I'll eat my underwear...
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On Fri, 15 May 2009 22:16:51 -0300, nemesis wrote:
> If the plot in the Watchmen entry can't be taken for granted, they'd
> better just drop the whole entry altogether.
Well, I don't know the plot. I'm sure I'm not the only one.
I don't know for sure, but it might well be an administrative thing -
they say they can't accept other wikipedia pages as references because
you could end up with a situation where two articles make assertions and
reference each other (and only each other), and since they've said "dem's
da rules", they can't let it go because it opens the door for other
abuses.
Jim
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Darren New wrote:
> nemesis wrote:
>> The rest is up to one's own judgment.
>
> An encyclopedia isn't supposed to be up to the reader's judgement.
>
> If you put in a [1]
>
> [1] Bird said he liked Watchmen in a June 1998 interview on The Tonight
> Show and would base a film on it
>
> then maybe you'd have something.
>
> You can say "the film shares plot points with Watchmen." I don't htink
> you've justified "the film was inspired by Watchmen."
A whole lot of very unconventional plot points. See my reply above.
I don't think that's mere coincidence.
Besides, I don't think Brad Bird would go on and admit a ripping like that.
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On Fri, 15 May 2009 22:22:46 -0300, nemesis wrote:
> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Fri, 15 May 2009 21:35:05 -0300, nemesis wrote:
>>
>>> bunch of nazis...
>>
>> I call Godwin's law.
>
> Don't you find it a bit weird that you can't even point it out in the
> discussion page rather than in the entry?
My comment has nothing to do with that. You reduced it to "what a bunch
of nazis", so I called Godwin's law.
Jim
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Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Fri, 15 May 2009 22:16:51 -0300, nemesis wrote:
>
>> If the plot in the Watchmen entry can't be taken for granted, they'd
>> better just drop the whole entry altogether.
>
> Well, I don't know the plot. I'm sure I'm not the only one.
>
> I don't know for sure, but it might well be an administrative thing -
> they say they can't accept other wikipedia pages as references because
> you could end up with a situation where two articles make assertions and
> reference each other (and only each other), and since they've said "dem's
> da rules", they can't let it go because it opens the door for other
> abuses.
Ok, I can accept that. I just can't accept that they may allow
references in the discussion page for Fantastic Four but not for
Watchmen. Something gotta hurt, I guess...
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On Fri, 15 May 2009 23:15:04 -0300, nemesis wrote:
> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Fri, 15 May 2009 22:16:51 -0300, nemesis wrote:
>>
>>> If the plot in the Watchmen entry can't be taken for granted, they'd
>>> better just drop the whole entry altogether.
>>
>> Well, I don't know the plot. I'm sure I'm not the only one.
>>
>> I don't know for sure, but it might well be an administrative thing -
>> they say they can't accept other wikipedia pages as references because
>> you could end up with a situation where two articles make assertions
>> and reference each other (and only each other), and since they've said
>> "dem's da rules", they can't let it go because it opens the door for
>> other abuses.
>
> Ok, I can accept that. I just can't accept that they may allow
> references in the discussion page for Fantastic Four but not for
> Watchmen. Something gotta hurt, I guess...
<shrug> It's their system, they can moderate it and manage it how they
like....
Jim
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On Fri, 15 May 2009 23:07:34 -0300, nemesis wrote:
> Darren New wrote:
>> nemesis wrote:
>>> I'm just saying there that "The incredibles" has a very similar plot
>>> to Watchmen
>>
>> No, you're saying Incredible was *inspired* by Watchmen, not just
>> similar.
>>
>> You would need to show that Brad Bird, for example, was aware of
>> Watchmen and knew the plot when he was making the Incredibles, as a
>> minimum.
>
> How could he not be aware of this classic? You know Alan Moore was
> featured in a Simpsons episode? You know Brad Bird was creative
> consultant to the Simpsons? No, I don't know if the episode is from
> before or after he left, what I do know is:
>
> * a super-hero world where heroes are banned is by itself a very
> non-conventional plot for a super-hero story (at least until Watchmen
> got it done)
> * the plot is kicked off when an older hero goes missing (and is found
> to be dead)
> * the villain threatens the world with a fake attack so that he can be
> "heroic"
> * the threat is a huge, monocular monster with tentacles * the monster
> was raised in a remote Island * the dead hero was killed because of what
> the plans he uncovered in the Island
> * cape is bad for your health
>
> If that's not enough for a link, I'll eat my underwear...
Get your fork out, apparently it isn't. There's nothing *substantiated*
there, just a bunch of guesses.
Star Wars, The Belgariad, and Dune, and Magician:Apprentice (and its
sequels) all have a common plot - the world is in trouble and then saved
by a messiah character. That doesn't mean they were inspired by the
Bible (or that any of their authors read the Bible or were even inspired
by it).
Jim
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On Fri, 15 May 2009 23:09:46 -0300, nemesis wrote:
> I don't think that's mere coincidence.
To borrow a line from A Few Good Men, "It doesn't matter what I believe,
it only matters what I can prove!"
Jim
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Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Fri, 15 May 2009 23:07:34 -0300, nemesis wrote:
>
>> Darren New wrote:
>>> nemesis wrote:
>>>> I'm just saying there that "The incredibles" has a very similar plot
>>>> to Watchmen
>>> No, you're saying Incredible was *inspired* by Watchmen, not just
>>> similar.
>>>
>>> You would need to show that Brad Bird, for example, was aware of
>>> Watchmen and knew the plot when he was making the Incredibles, as a
>>> minimum.
>> How could he not be aware of this classic? You know Alan Moore was
>> featured in a Simpsons episode? You know Brad Bird was creative
>> consultant to the Simpsons? No, I don't know if the episode is from
>> before or after he left, what I do know is:
>>
>> * a super-hero world where heroes are banned is by itself a very
>> non-conventional plot for a super-hero story (at least until Watchmen
>> got it done)
>> * the plot is kicked off when an older hero goes missing (and is found
>> to be dead)
>> * the villain threatens the world with a fake attack so that he can be
>> "heroic"
>> * the threat is a huge, monocular monster with tentacles * the monster
>> was raised in a remote Island * the dead hero was killed because of what
>> the plans he uncovered in the Island
>> * cape is bad for your health
>>
>> If that's not enough for a link, I'll eat my underwear...
>
> Get your fork out, apparently it isn't. There's nothing *substantiated*
> there, just a bunch of guesses.
>
> Star Wars, The Belgariad, and Dune, and Magician:Apprentice (and its
> sequels) all have a common plot - the world is in trouble and then saved
> by a messiah character. That doesn't mean they were inspired by the
> Bible (or that any of their authors read the Bible or were even inspired
> by it).
Did you actually read what I wrote. It's not a generic set of plot
points, they are very specific and "awkward" set of plot points
identical in both works.
You may not be aware of it, but Watchmen is a very known super-hero
classic. It was also the only comic book in Time magazine's list of 100
most significant XX century books.
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Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Fri, 15 May 2009 23:09:46 -0300, nemesis wrote:
>
>> I don't think that's mere coincidence.
>
> To borrow a line from A Few Good Men, "It doesn't matter what I believe,
> it only matters what I can prove!"
Well, I certainly can prove nothing to people who've only seen a side of
the coin.
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