On Wed, 22 Apr 2009 16:28:59 -0400, Warp wrote:

> Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>> On Wed, 22 Apr 2009 13:26:07 -0400, Warp wrote:
> 
>> >   How else do they know who to send the bills to in your country?
> 
>> Because they're given a mailing address?
> 
>   And if the person in question does not pay his bills and moves to
> another place?

Then it goes to a collection agency which tracks them down.

In the US, credit reporting agencies tend to have good data on where 
people are located as well.

SSN is not a universal ID in the US.  It's a taxpayer identification 
number and really nothing more.

Jim

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Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> >   And if the person in question does not pay his bills and moves to
> > another place?

> Then it goes to a collection agency which tracks them down.

  And the easiest way of doing that here is with the social security number,
as it's an unambiguous unique identifier (and the government has your data
associated with it).

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_shyness
> 
> Maybe something like that.  Extreme fear of rejection was a bit part of 
> it.  I was always the kid the girls wanted to have as a friend so they 
> could complain about their boyfriends (or the other boys they wanted as 
> their boyfriends) to someone.

When *I* was a kid, "girls" were these mythical creatures that I'd never 
actually seen or interacted with before, but I desperately wanted to 
find one and keep her for ever and ever...

Of course, gradually I came to realise that girls are actually just 
normal human beings who are a bit special. Some of them are nice, some 
of them are arseholes. Oddly, attractiveness appears to be negatively 
correlated with personality... but it's only a general correlation, 
there is of course considerable variability.

Now, if I could just learn to not be terrified of all human beings, 
maybe I'd be getting somewhere! :-}

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Warp wrote:
> Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>>>   And if the person in question does not pay his bills and moves to
>>> another place?
> 
>> Then it goes to a collection agency which tracks them down.
> 
>   And the easiest way of doing that here is with the social security number,
> as it's an unambiguous unique identifier (and the government has your data
> associated with it).

Yes. Here, if you refuse to give your SSN to (say) the phone company, 
they'll require about six months of deposit from you (i.e., about 6 bills 
worth of money), and they'll give that back after a year. And you'll still 
get sent to collections if you don't pay after that, and you won't get phone 
service without a big deposit next time even if you give your SSN. (That's 
one of the things those 300TB databases tracks.)

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   There's no CD like OCD, there's no CD I knoooow!

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On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 09:04:45 +0100, Invisible wrote:

>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_shyness
>> 
>> Maybe something like that.  Extreme fear of rejection was a bit part of
>> it.  I was always the kid the girls wanted to have as a friend so they
>> could complain about their boyfriends (or the other boys they wanted as
>> their boyfriends) to someone.
> 
> When *I* was a kid, "girls" were these mythical creatures that I'd never
> actually seen or interacted with before, but I desperately wanted to
> find one and keep her for ever and ever...

Heh, dude, you *are* a kid. ;-)  Aren't you in your late 20's?

> Of course, gradually I came to realise that girls are actually just
> normal human beings who are a bit special. Some of them are nice, some
> of them are arseholes. Oddly, attractiveness appears to be negatively
> correlated with personality... but it's only a general correlation,
> there is of course considerable variability.

Indeed there is. :-)

> Now, if I could just learn to not be terrified of all human beings,
> maybe I'd be getting somewhere! :-}

You're making progress.  :-)

Jim

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On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 03:11:12 -0400, Warp wrote:

> Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>> >   And if the person in question does not pay his bills and moves to
>> > another place?
> 
>> Then it goes to a collection agency which tracks them down.
> 
>   And the easiest way of doing that here is with the social security
>   number,

Maybe there, but not here...not everyone in the US has one.  Many people 
who live in the US don't, even though they're legal.

> as it's an unambiguous unique identifier (and the government has your
> data associated with it).

Over here we tend to be suspicious (some would say "overly suspicious") 
of the idea of a national identity database.  Governments around the 
world have demonstrated that they're not terribly good at keeping data 
that should secure secured.  Though the most recent examples I can think 
of are from he UK....

Jim

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On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 08:45:44 -0700, Darren New wrote:

>  if you refuse to give your SSN to (say) the phone company,
> they'll require about six months of deposit from you

I think that depends on where you are in the US, though.

I don't recall ever giving my SSN to a utility company in the states I've 
lived in, and don't recall ever having to pay a deposit, either - even 
when my credit rating was bad.

Jim

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Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> Maybe there, but not here...not everyone in the US has one.  Many people 
> who live in the US don't, even though they're legal.

  I can't understand how that can work. The most prominent problem which
comes to mind is: How do they collect taxes if they don't know who is who?
How can employers inform the government who is working for them if the
employees have no ID? (At least here employers have a rather strict duty
to have very accurate paperwork on who is working and every single cent
is accounted for and notified, mostly for taxing and insurance purposes
but also for other things, such as ensuring employee rights and such.)

> > as it's an unambiguous unique identifier (and the government has your
> > data associated with it).

> Over here we tend to be suspicious (some would say "overly suspicious") 
> of the idea of a national identity database.  Governments around the 
> world have demonstrated that they're not terribly good at keeping data 
> that should secure secured.  Though the most recent examples I can think 
> of are from he UK....

  One can be suspicious of a government that wants to keep accurate
information on every single citizen of the country, but I really can't
understand how a country can work without that. The Finnish government
(and I'm sure it's the same for many other countries) knows the exact
number of Finnish citizens, and their basic info (date of birth, etc.)

  That might sound a bit draconian when said like that, but I have yet
to feel that being abused. It seems to work quite well. One situation
where the government knowing who you are works pretty well is in, as
the name implies, social security. For example if you break a leg, you
just go to the hospital, tell your social security number, and they fix
you up for free. No hassle.

  To somewhat compensate, Finland has very strict privacy laws (probably
much stricter than in most other countries). For example, it's strictly
prohibited to publish lists of information about people, such as for
example people's names and their SSNs. This goes sometimes to rather
extremes: For example, at schools it's prohibited to put lists of
student names and their student numbers in public view (eg. in test
scores) because it's interpreted to break the privacy laws. (You can
publish lists which have only the numbers or only the names along with
the test scores, but not both. Most choose to publish only the numbers
because they feel more anonymous.)

  Another extreme example (and perhaps even a bit ridiculous) was a
Finnish website which collected photos of cars with funny license plates.
The website was shut down by authorities because it was interpreted to
break privacy laws (it connected license numbers with the technical
info of the cars, in the form of photographs).

  Naturally phonebooks are an exception to this. But even with them you
always specifically choose whether you want your number on the public
phone book or not when you create a phone contract. (And later you can
change this with one phone call.)

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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Warp wrote:
> Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>> Maybe there, but not here...not everyone in the US has one.  Many people 
>> who live in the US don't, even though they're legal.
> 
>   I can't understand how that can work. The most prominent problem which
> comes to mind is: How do they collect taxes if they don't know who is who?

The IRS (Internal Revenue Service) of course has your SSN, as does anyone 
with the authority to collect taxes.  (Interestingly, it's called "Social 
security number" because it was originally only to be used to collect social 
security, not even other federal or state taxes.)

Private companies (other than your employer of course) don't necessarily get 
your SSN unless you give it to them. Most places that key their database by 
your SSN have mechanisms to support people who don't have or refuse to 
provide their SSN.

> How can employers inform the government who is working for them if the
> employees have no ID? 

Only taxpayers actually need an SSN. You don't get it "at birth". You get it 
before you get a paying job. It's not a national ID number, it's a taxpayer 
ID number.

>   That might sound a bit draconian when said like that, but I have yet
> to feel that being abused.

It was certainly abused during various wars, by both the USA and Germany 
during WWII, for example. Not to invoke godwin or anything...

>   To somewhat compensate, Finland has very strict privacy laws (probably
> much stricter than in most other countries). 

We lack that here, which is part of the problem. And even when there are 
specific laws, our government is pretty good at ignoring them anyway. :-)

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   There's no CD like OCD, there's no CD I knoooow!

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>> Now, if I could just learn to not be terrified of all human beings,
>> maybe I'd be getting somewhere! :-}
> 
> You're making progress.  :-)

I am?

Right now I'm just miserable because she hasn't contacted me yet... :-(

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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