On Sat, 28 Mar 2009 09:13:44 -0700, Darren New wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Well, *most* of those illegal activities (with the possible exception
>> of teens sleeping with each other) don't generally cause things like
>> automobile accidents.  This is a generally different class of problem
>> that we're talking about.
> 
> Fair dinkum.

Ironically, I read what I wrote again and should clarify that I don't 
think teens sleeping together causes automobile accidents. ;-)

>> I think we've got enough laws to cover "reckless driving" without
>> having to legislate "you can't eat a cheeseburger", "you can't talk on
>> a phone", "you can't read a book".
> 
> I think part of the problem is that people are really bad at judging
> low-risk activities.  People wouldn't know that talking on the phone is
> dangerous if you didn't get the word out, and legislators get the word
> out by passing laws.

Well, I'd say that *some* people are really bad at judging low-risk 
activities.  But why penalize the rest of us for it?

For example, I tend to talk on the phone when I'm driving to and from the 
office (which happens about once every 2 weeks these days).  It's 90 
minutes on the road round-trip and generally a pretty boring drive.

So I'll talk to my mom or my wife while I'm driving home.  They know I'm 
in the car and paying attention to the traffic around me, and if I don't 
respond immediately it's because I'm dealing with something.

But I also have an effective way to divide my attention during that 
drive.  When I get into town, things change, so I tend to get off the 
phone, but on the freeway it's an entirely different matter.

> Granted, if you don't realize that trying to type a text message while
> you drive is dangerous, you're stupid, but...

Well, yeah, but at the same time, if I'm out driving (as I was today) and 
need to let my kid know we're on the way home, I'll ask my wife (who 
doesn't know how to use my phone to send text messages) to let me know 
when the light changes, and send him a message while I'm at the light.  
If I don't finish writing, fine, driving comes first.  But not while 
moving.

The new law in Utah would make that illegal.  However, the cops have no 
way of knowing that's what I'm doing.

> I think that comes from when they pass laws saying "you can't talk on
> the phone", but people don't want to adjust their habits of doing work
> while driving.

True.  Many people can multitask.  When someone schedules a meeting for 
7:30 AM, I'm not going to be in the office for it - not a chance that I'm 
up at 5:30 AM most mornings just so I can be to the office for an 7:30 AM 
meeting.  But if I have something I need to be to at 9, an hour meeting 
from 7:30 to 8:30 leaves me insufficient time to get there, so I'm very 
likely going to be on the call while I'm driving.

>> LOL.  My wife has a habit of writing on Livejournal after having had a
>> bit to drink.  Her friends really enjoy those posts. :-)
> 
> It's funky. I have no problem at all, but even one or two mouthfuls of
> wine are enough to multiply my typos several-fold. Clearly you can be
> impaired and not feel it in the least. Whether it's bad enough to ruin
> your driving depends on how well you drive before that, I guess.

True.  And how well attuned you are to your own abilities and driving 
habits.

I've only once, for example, been so drunk that I couldn't remember what 
had happened (the time I got home and wasn't sure); but the memory did 
return after a few days (and let's just say I was damned lucky).  So I 
know my tolerance and I don't get anywhere near it now.

But I think a lot of people *use* drinking as an excuse to act stupid - 
even on that night when I didn't remember getting home, when I started to 
remember things the next day, I recalled that I still didn't do stupid 
things that were out of character for me (confirmed by the friends I was 
with).  And "stupid" is generally not in character for me.

Well, apart from "stupid" driving home - that was out of character, but I 
was still pretty young and didn't know my limits then as well as I do now.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Sat, 28 Mar 2009 18:13:13 +0000, Stephen wrote:

> On Fri, 27 Mar 2009 17:32:19 -0700, Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> 
>>And three cheers for spell checkers after a whiskey sour
> 
> Whiskey sour Euch!
> 
> The only thing you should put in whisky is more whisky ;)

LOL

Post a reply to this message

Jim Henderson wrote:
> Ironically, I read what I wrote again and should clarify that I don't 
> think teens sleeping together causes automobile accidents. ;-)

Not *automobile* accidents, no.  Parking While Intoxicated causes accidents.

> But I also have an effective way to divide my attention during that 
> drive.  When I get into town, things change, so I tend to get off the 
> phone, but on the freeway it's an entirely different matter.

How do you know?

> The new law in Utah would make that illegal.  However, the cops have no 
> way of knowing that's what I'm doing.

Then pull off to the side and do it. :-) Seems easy enough.

> likely going to be on the call while I'm driving.

At least here you get to have hands-free conversations. Not that it's all 
that much better.

>> impaired and not feel it in the least. Whether it's bad enough to ruin
>> your driving depends on how well you drive before that, I guess.
> 
> True.  And how well attuned you are to your own abilities and driving 
> habits.

That, and how much room you leave, and etc. I'm not a very good driver any 
more, since I no longer commute very far if at all, but I'm smart enough to 
know that and leave plenty of space around myself, for example.

> I've only once, for example, been so drunk that I couldn't remember what 
> had happened 

I've never been that drunk. :-)

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   There's no CD like OCD, there's no CD I knoooow!

Post a reply to this message

On 29-3-2009 7:42, Jim Henderson wrote:

> I've only once, for example, been so drunk that I couldn't remember what 
> had happened (the time I got home and wasn't sure); but the memory did 
> return after a few days (and let's just say I was damned lucky).  So I 
> know my tolerance and I don't get anywhere near it now.

Long before you notice anything yourself your reaction time already goes 
up. You still feel the same and as long as nothing unexpected happens 
you are just as able to drive as always. One of the reasons why the 
alcohol limit is so low that most people think they could drink at least 
three more beer before they their driving is even minutely impaired is 
because of that. I.e. that people are unable to objectively look at 
themselves after consuming alcohol. Possibly because all the internal 
things you normally use to evaluate how well you are performing are 
slowed down by the same amount.

Post a reply to this message

On 29 Mar 2009 01:42:17 -0400, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:

>
>Ironically, I read what I wrote again and should clarify that I don't 
>think teens sleeping together causes automobile accidents. ;-)
>

It can if they are driving, I would think.

>
>Well, I'd say that *some* people are really bad at judging low-risk 
>activities.  But why penalize the rest of us for it?
>

Because everyone thinks that they are the exception.

>For example, I tend to talk on the phone when I'm driving to and from the 
>office (which happens about once every 2 weeks these days).  It's 90 
>minutes on the road round-trip and generally a pretty boring drive.
>
>So I'll talk to my mom or my wife while I'm driving home.  They know I'm 
>in the car and paying attention to the traffic around me, and if I don't 
>respond immediately it's because I'm dealing with something.
>
>But I also have an effective way to divide my attention during that 
>drive.  When I get into town, things change, so I tend to get off the 
>phone, but on the freeway it's an entirely different matter.

"tend to get off the phone" Does that mean that sometimes you don't?
>
>> Granted, if you don't realize that trying to type a text message while
>> you drive is dangerous, you're stupid, but...
>

The same could be said for talking on the phone.

After bumping my motorbike into a wall when parking 40 years ago after drinking
2 pints of beer. (The limit was considered to be 3 pints.) I've never driven
after drinking and I like a drink. I also switch my phone off when driving, If
I've left it on by mistake and it rings I ignore it then pull over to check it
when I can.

Have you ever heard anyone saying "I drive better after a couple of drinks"?

-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

Stephen wrote:
> 
> Have you ever heard anyone saying "I drive better after a couple of drinks"?
> 

They (yes, the famous they - I don't remember which magazine it was)
tested it at Finland some years ago. They had a computer with driving
simulator and everyone in the test took a one drink between driving
sessions. The results show that after 2-3 drinks most of them actually
were driving better than without. OTOH they drove the same track over
and over again (they had to to make sure that the results are
comparable) and learned how the track goes :). I guess no-one is
surprised to hear that there wasn't people surprisingly running to the
track oslt involved.

-Aero

Post a reply to this message

On Sun, 29 Mar 2009 19:04:56 +0300, Eero Ahonen
<aer### [at] removethiszbxtnetinvalid> wrote:

>Stephen wrote:
>> 
>> Have you ever heard anyone saying "I drive better after a couple of drinks"?
>> 
>
>They (yes, the famous they - I don't remember which magazine it was)
>tested it at Finland some years ago. They had a computer with driving
>simulator and everyone in the test took a one drink between driving
>sessions. The results show that after 2-3 drinks most of them actually
>were driving better than without. OTOH they drove the same track over
>and over again (they had to to make sure that the results are
>comparable) and learned how the track goes :). I guess no-one is
>surprised to hear that there wasn't people surprisingly running to the
>track oslt involved.
>
>-Aero

That's all very well when things go well but what happens when something
unexpected happens? Faster reflexes and better judgement?

OSLT > Or Something Like That ?
-- 

Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

Eero Ahonen wrote:
> The results show that after 2-3 drinks most of them actually
> were driving better than without. 

So they lacked a control group, which would have told them how much of the 
improvement was repetition.  Bad scientist. No grant.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   There's no CD like OCD, there's no CD I knoooow!

Post a reply to this message

On Sun, 29 Mar 2009 12:07:21 +0100, Stephen wrote:

> On 29 Mar 2009 01:42:17 -0400, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> 
> 
>>Ironically, I read what I wrote again and should clarify that I don't
>>think teens sleeping together causes automobile accidents. ;-)
>>
> It can if they are driving, I would think.

Point.  But even sleeping separately while driving can cause automobile 
accidents. :-)

>>Well, I'd say that *some* people are really bad at judging low-risk
>>activities.  But why penalize the rest of us for it?
>>
> Because everyone thinks that they are the exception.

80% of drivers think they're above average.  What scares me about that 
statistic is that 20% think they're below average and they're still on 
the roads.

> "tend to get off the phone" Does that mean that sometimes you don't?

Depends on the route I'm driving and how busy the road is.  I usually get 
to the city after rush hour is over, so the surface streets are not all 
that busy.  I also use a headset, both hands on the wheel at all times.

>>> Granted, if you don't realize that trying to type a text message while
>>> you drive is dangerous, you're stupid, but...
>>
> The same could be said for talking on the phone.
> 
> After bumping my motorbike into a wall when parking 40 years ago after
> drinking 2 pints of beer. (The limit was considered to be 3 pints.) I've
> never driven after drinking and I like a drink. I also switch my phone
> off when driving, If I've left it on by mistake and it rings I ignore it
> then pull over to check it when I can.
> 
> Have you ever heard anyone saying "I drive better after a couple of
> drinks"?

I have, and I think it's one of the stupidest things I've ever heard - 
and I generally will tell people who say that exactly that.

That said, a good friend of mine (who lost his license as a result of the 
incident) ended up with a shattered ankle after a head-on collision.  He 
was over the legal limit, and the other driver died in the accident.  But 
being the freak he is, it was 100% the other guy's fault - the other car 
was over the centre line on a long curve and there's no way my friend 
could've avoided hitting him.

The constables on the scene - as well as the dead driver's family - felt 
badly for him because his license was suspended.

The guess is that the main reason he didn't die in the accident was 
because he was relaxed as a result of the alcohol.  If he hadn't had a 
few pints ahead of time, his injuries would probably have been more 
severe or he might've died.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Sun, 29 Mar 2009 19:04:56 +0300, Eero Ahonen wrote:

> Stephen wrote:
>> 
>> Have you ever heard anyone saying "I drive better after a couple of
>> drinks"?
>> 
>> 
> They (yes, the famous they - I don't remember which magazine it was)
> tested it at Finland some years ago. They had a computer with driving
> simulator and everyone in the test took a one drink between driving
> sessions. The results show that after 2-3 drinks most of them actually
> were driving better than without. OTOH they drove the same track over
> and over again (they had to to make sure that the results are
> comparable) and learned how the track goes :). I guess no-one is
> surprised to hear that there wasn't people surprisingly running to the
> track oslt involved.
> 
> -Aero

Well, ISTR that most Finnish drivers go through what is described by some 
as the most intensive driving course in the world, and that the exams are 
actually difficult.

Jim

Post a reply to this message