On Sun, 29 Mar 2009 10:02:50 +0200, andrel wrote:

> On 29-3-2009 7:42, Jim Henderson wrote:
> 
>> I've only once, for example, been so drunk that I couldn't remember
>> what had happened (the time I got home and wasn't sure); but the memory
>> did return after a few days (and let's just say I was damned lucky). 
>> So I know my tolerance and I don't get anywhere near it now.
> 
> Long before you notice anything yourself your reaction time already goes
> up. 

This is definitely true; however I learned a long time ago how to judge 
that.  However the unexpected is something you can't predict, which is 
why I stay off the road until my reactions are better.

If I'm at a friend's house and expect to drink more than a pint or two of 
beer over the course of the evening, I ask them to hold my keys for me 
and to not give them back if it's clear I'm in no condition to drive.

Jim

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On Sat, 28 Mar 2009 22:57:36 -0700, Darren New wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Ironically, I read what I wrote again and should clarify that I don't
>> think teens sleeping together causes automobile accidents. ;-)
> 
> Not *automobile* accidents, no.  Parking While Intoxicated causes
> accidents.

LOL!

>> But I also have an effective way to divide my attention during that
>> drive.  When I get into town, things change, so I tend to get off the
>> phone, but on the freeway it's an entirely different matter.
> 
> How do you know?

I know because I drive this stretch of I-15 very regularly and because I 
know how I divide my attention.  For example, I often don't know exactly 
where I am on the road (not important information to safely driving on 
the freeway) but I know the position of every car in my immediate 
vicinity.  Both ahead of *and* behind me as well.  I do that when I'm 
driving "not on the phone" as well, but I also tend to have a better idea 
where I am on the freeway (relative to the office and home).

IOW, I filter out the unimportant things to driving safely on the road 
and my attention is on those things that are instead of listening to the 
radio, seeing how far I have to go to get home, and so on.

There are lots of things that people process while they're driving that 
are unimportant to not being in a wreck.  I switch that part of my 
attention to the conversation, just as I would if the person were in the 
car with me.

But they *always* know I'm driving - often I even start the conversation 
with "I'm on my way home now".  I also occasionally say "sorry, I didn't 
hear that, can you repeat" because my full attention was needed for 
something happening around me (car speeding past on the right, accident 
on the median causing traffic slowing - things like that).

>> The new law in Utah would make that illegal.  However, the cops have no
>> way of knowing that's what I'm doing.
> 
> Then pull off to the side and do it. :-) Seems easy enough.

That's not the point, though.  The point is that the law is unenforceable 
anyways, so it's really a waste of the legislator's time.

While we're legislating things that cannot possibly be enforced, let's 
also make it illegal to clip your toenails on a Sunday night if you're 
home alone.

>> likely going to be on the call while I'm driving.
> 
> At least here you get to have hands-free conversations. Not that it's
> all that much better.

I think it does make a huge difference.  For one thing, if you aren't 
talking hands-free, you don't have both hands on the wheel.  You have 
less control over the 1-1.5 tonnes of vehicle you're driving.

>>> impaired and not feel it in the least. Whether it's bad enough to ruin
>>> your driving depends on how well you drive before that, I guess.
>> 
>> True.  And how well attuned you are to your own abilities and driving
>> habits.
> 
> That, and how much room you leave, and etc. I'm not a very good driver
> any more, since I no longer commute very far if at all, but I'm smart
> enough to know that and leave plenty of space around myself, for
> example.

Yes, that's a very important piece as well.  I *always* try to leave a 
fair amount of space around me on all sides (if I can) and have a 
constantly changing focus as to where I *could* go if I had to shift 
lanes quickly.  I'm constantly updating my situational awareness; I think 
a lot of drivers don't think about what's going on behind them.   A 
couple weeks ago, I hit a patch of ice on a surface street (not on the 
phone, very early in the morning and I hadn't gotten on the freeway 
yet).  I had left plenty of room ahead of me to get stopped (in spite of 
not knowing there was ice on the roads) but the car behind me hadn't.

I think most drivers would've ended up being rear-ended.  I got slowed 
down to a point where I wasn't going to hit the car in front of me, saw 
the headlights of the car behind me disappear below the deck of the 
trunk, cranked the wheel to the left and took my foot off the brake; the 
wheels gripped and the car pulled gently into the center lane, avoiding 
being hit from behind.

The driver in the car behind me *clearly* was unprepared, and when the 
light turned, he maintained a significant gap behind me.

>> I've only once, for example, been so drunk that I couldn't remember
>> what had happened
> 
> I've never been that drunk. :-)

I think you are very fortunate in that.  I generally don't drink a lot 
any more, but there were a few years where it was a common thing for me.  
We've got bottles and bottles of beer in the fridge, for example, that 
have been there for months.  We actually use it more for cooking than for 
drinking.

Jim

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Stephen wrote:
> 
> That's all very well when things go well but what happens when something
> unexpected happens? Faster reflexes and better judgement?

Exactly. And that they drove the track AFAIK first time ever purely
sober and started the drinks after that, learning while driving, even
though alcohol was making the driving worse, makes the results unreliable.

> OSLT > Or Something Like That ?

Yep.

-Aero

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Darren New wrote:
> 
> So they lacked a control group, which would have told them how much of
> the improvement was repetition.  Bad scientist. No grant.
> 

Agreed. It was a test by some automobile magazine. They were simply to
prove that the alcohol makes things worse, but they kind of missed
theier target.

-Aero

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Jim Henderson wrote:
> 
> Well, ISTR that most Finnish drivers go through what is described by some 
> as the most intensive driving course in the world, and that the exams are 
> actually difficult.

Either I can't comply or I am that better-than-average driver that
something like 80% are told to think of themselves (I did drive and get
more lessons than average driving student, as my father teached me).
Once I hit 18, it was pretty clear go-through for the exams and through
all of them (a picture exam, theoretical questions and driving exam) via
one shot. Last summer I upgraded my license so I can pull hevier loads -
 I trained for one night (with a car I've never driven before - luckily
WV Transporter T4 2,4D Syncro is a damn easy car for such exams) and
tried out the picture test with a computer program couple of times at
the same morning I was about to have the exams (4 this time, 10
questions, 50 pictures, handling exam and half an hour of driving) and
I'd say it was easy. OTOH the guy who took the driving exam said it was
actually a pleasant drive :). I guess something like 100Mm in more
hectic traffic than it was there teaches you something ;).

> Jim

-Aero

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Jim Henderson wrote:
> 
> 80% of drivers think they're above average.  What scares me about that 
> statistic is that 20% think they're below average and they're still on 
> the roads.
> 

I still haven't seen any document, which says what those people think is
an average. Those 20 percent might think they are slower and always
harassing someone, while they actually are driving safely in theier own
limits.

Plain numbers are just plain numbers. That 80/20 -sharing proves nor
says nothing, 'cause they don't say, which kind of driver (economic,
safe, fast...) is the best one.

> Jim

-Aero

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On 29-3-2009 20:40, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Mar 2009 10:02:50 +0200, andrel wrote:
> 
>> On 29-3-2009 7:42, Jim Henderson wrote:
>>
>>> I've only once, for example, been so drunk that I couldn't remember
>>> what had happened (the time I got home and wasn't sure); but the memory
>>> did return after a few days (and let's just say I was damned lucky). 
>>> So I know my tolerance and I don't get anywhere near it now.
>> Long before you notice anything yourself your reaction time already goes
>> up. 
> 
> This is definitely true; however I learned a long time ago how to judge 
> that.  However the unexpected is something you can't predict, which is 
> why I stay off the road until my reactions are better.
> 
> If I'm at a friend's house and expect to drink more than a pint or two of 
> beer over the course of the evening, I ask them to hold my keys for me 
> and to not give them back if it's clear I'm in no condition to drive.

To which my predictable response would be that they can not judge 
either. But that is so predictable that I won't do it. ;)

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On 29-3-2009 20:38, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Mar 2009 19:04:56 +0300, Eero Ahonen wrote:
> 
>> Stephen wrote:
>>> Have you ever heard anyone saying "I drive better after a couple of
>>> drinks"?
>>>
>>>
>> They (yes, the famous they - I don't remember which magazine it was)
>> tested it at Finland some years ago. They had a computer with driving
>> simulator and everyone in the test took a one drink between driving
>> sessions. The results show that after 2-3 drinks most of them actually
>> were driving better than without. OTOH they drove the same track over
>> and over again (they had to to make sure that the results are
>> comparable) and learned how the track goes :). I guess no-one is
>> surprised to hear that there wasn't people surprisingly running to the
>> track oslt involved.
>>
>> -Aero
> 
> Well, ISTR that most Finnish drivers go through what is described by some 
> as the most intensive driving course in the world, and that the exams are 
> actually difficult.

The Dutch is also very intensive. I think less than 40% get it on their 
first exam. It is preceded by a theoretical part that has even a bit 
more failures. It took me about 2 years and 4 tries to get my license. 
The retries mainly because the examinators don't like the style of 
driving of a 40 year old intellectual. Or at least that was the 
explanation of my instructor. He predicted that after a couple of tries 
I could ask for another type of examination and that I would succeed 
then the first time. Which I did. It took that examinator about 100m to 
figure out why I would never pass the normal exam and why that was 
wrong. I, of course, got my theory in one try (twice*).
I think that the everage cost of a driver license here is a couple of 
thousand euro's.
Question to check how your link with reality is: a Dutchman going to the 
States for a couple of years or an American coming here. One has to do 
an exam to convert to a valid local license: which one?

*) because it is only valid for one year.

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On 29-3-2009 20:37, Jim Henderson wrote:

> 80% of drivers think they're above average.  What scares me about that 
> statistic is that 20% think they're below average and they're still on 
> the roads.

I assume they think that they are below average but still better than 
that 40% of morons that they normally see on the road.

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andrel <a_l### [at] hotmailcom> wrote:
> The Dutch is also very intensive. I think less than 40% get it on their
> first exam. It is preceded by a theoretical part that has even a bit
> more failures. It took me about 2 years and 4 tries to get my license.

Why then, at weekends, are the German motorways crowded with Dutch people who
still cannot drive? :P

(sorry, just jumping on an old stereotype ;))

> Question to check how your link with reality is: a Dutchman going to the
> States for a couple of years or an American coming here. One has to do
> an exam to convert to a valid local license: which one?

I bet the Dutch guy staying in the US: They don't recognize anything that comes
from outside America The Beautiful.

But I bet it's just one drive round the local supermarket car park. In a car
with automatic transmission.

A US citizen staying in Germany would have to fill in tons of paperwork instead,
I guess. Probably to confirm that he is able to drive from his home to the
Strassenverkehrsamt, over to a photographer, the US embassy, half a dozeon
other Aemter, and finally back to the Strassenverkehrsamt... or something like
that :P

The German do recognize stuff from outside Germany - but only if it can be
stapled, stamped and filed ;)

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