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andrel wrote:
> Ah, 'teach' may be the important word here. Most people I have met are
> not from churches that teach missionary actions. Apart from the Jehovah
> witnesses that come to the door (must be 9 years since I saw the last
> one). Catholics here tend to not take serious anybody from the ranks of
> bishop up. I have yet to meet a Muslim that has taken it's faith serious
> enough to even know how to explain his faith to an infidel. In short,
> all religious persons I know personally that are serious about their
> faith and every church they are in are not of the missionary type.
> Remember, I live in the Netherlands.
And that, my friend, is likely precisely why it harder to take people at
face value for me than it is for you. The ones like you talk about, even
if they may be a slim majority in the US, and I am not that certain of
that, are most definitely "not" the sort you ***see*** doing most
charity work, or seeking to help people, etc. There is a bias, even
among many liberal church goers in the US, that when someone opens a
soup kitchen, one of the first questions isn't, "How many people did it
feed?", but, "Do they preach to them before they let them eat it?" At
best, the ones like those you are used to, try real hard to avoid
thinking about that question, but if asked, can't honestly reply that it
didn't occur to them. Remember I live in the good old US of A-hole here.
--
void main () {
If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
if version = "Vista" {
call slow_by_half();
call DRM_everything();
}
call functional_code();
}
else
call crash_windows();
}
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Darren New wrote:
> Saul Luizaga wrote:
>> This question denotes wisdom because you are willing to search and
>> learn contrary to Patrick that only writes "you are deluding yourself
>> you are being a moron, for your own sake STOP!!!".
>
> Yes. That's why I said I'm an atheist, but not like Patrick. For one
> thing, I've accepted that irrationality is not always bad.
>
He is putting words in my mouth and you are letting him? Yeah, I do
think believers delude themselves, but that is not the same as saying
that irrationality is always bad. For one, its impossible to avoid
anyway. My problem is, he seems to want it both ways. To pat you on the
back for "getting" how irrationality is OK, while claiming to admit that
we "can" feel things, then insisting that the only reason we can is
because god is hiding in the closet "prompting" us how to act while we
are thinking irrationally, or something. The cognitive dissonance
involved is just more than I am willing to put up with, especially when
he starts claiming that I don't have friends of family that can "love
each other like a theist can!" Its especially more than I am willing to
put up with because..., well, frankly I post a lot of several science
blogs, and there isn't one argument, assertion, wiggling claim, half
hearted attempt to seem sympathetic, while not being so, or supposition
that Saul has come up with that hasn't been tried there, multiple times,
as though they where all brand new, no one has heard them before, etc.
Heck, at least once a week, sometimes, some new person shows up on some
blog entry about something, to proclaim, "You all need to read the
Bible, because you obviously never did before." After the 30th time or
so, if gets old, and you just want them to come up with something that
a) is new, and b) hasn't dissolved, at some point into them making the
same assertions, over and over, while ignoring everything you or anyone
else in the thread said, as though we all just never heard "them" say it
the first 2-3 times either. Though, I admit, the funniest ones are the
ones that we manage to back into a corner, where they admit they believe
it all due to it being "comforting" to them, but they don't find it
logical either, as though belief in god is like me deciding not to get
out of bed when I wake up, and instead deciding to stay under the covers
for a few more minutes, despite having things I need to do that day.
--
void main () {
If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
if version = "Vista" {
call slow_by_half();
call DRM_everything();
}
call functional_code();
}
else
call crash_windows();
}
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nemesis wrote:
> Patrick Elliott <sel### [at] npgcable com> wrote:
>> But seriously... Spending 5 pages calling them everything from the
>> antichrist, to a mass murderer, to a liar, and so on, is all "fixed" by
>> adding "Best Regards" to the end...?
>
> God Bless you. :)
>
> It's not like most Christians or religious people are ignorant, it's that most
> of humanity is ignorant (yet still deserving of salvation). Most atheists are
> ignorant too and just enjoy it as an excuse for an orgiastic life of sex, drugs
> and consumerism, not like they care for the scientific method or any such crap.
> I guess filling the mistery of our apparent senseless existence with material
> pleasures is roughly about as good a way as filling it with prayers and
> requests to invisible beings. Human nature...
>
> Still, I understand that many of those who seek spiritual comfort are those that
> are the most persistent on a life of sin, lies, cheating, violence. Who can
> deny them to seek forgiveness for their acts, in spite of repetitive failure?
>
>
Umm. Putting it at the beginning doesn't help either, sorry..
--
void main () {
if version = "Vista" {
call slow_by_half();
call DRM_everything();
}
call functional_code();
}
else
call crash_windows();
}
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Darren New wrote:
> Patrick Elliott wrote:
>> Ah, yes. But, then "Be Well" isn't all that common in as the final
>> statement on long tirades about how evil, vile, god hating, monstrous,
>> murderous and damned you are.
>
> Yep. But then, Saul hasn't been like that. You're projecting onto him as
> much as he's projecting onto you and I.
>
I didn't say he was like that. I even **specifically* said so. How about
both of you stop putting words in my mouth...
--
void main () {
If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
if version = "Vista" {
call slow_by_half();
call DRM_everything();
}
call functional_code();
}
else
call crash_windows();
}
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3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>
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Darren New wrote:
> Patrick Elliott wrote:
>> not the least being self contradictions,
>
> At least one highly religious person I had an opportunity to interact
> with for hours at a time face to face has convinced me that self
> contradictions aren't a problem in religion. As long as you're being
> irrational, why stick with modus ponens?
>
Yes, well.. Its when they then insist that you don't know what "you" are
talking about because its so damn obvious that god is "both" a plate of
spaghetti and a magic hat, at the same time, that things really go down
hill for everyone not "in the know". lol
--
void main () {
If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
if version = "Vista" {
call slow_by_half();
call DRM_everything();
}
call functional_code();
}
else
call crash_windows();
}
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3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>
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Patrick Elliott <sel### [at] npgcablecom> wrote:
> Darren New wrote:
> > Patrick Elliott wrote:
> >> not the least being self contradictions,
> >
> > At least one highly religious person I had an opportunity to interact
> > with for hours at a time face to face has convinced me that self
> > contradictions aren't a problem in religion. As long as you're being
> > irrational, why stick with modus ponens?
> >
> Yes, well.. Its when they then insist that you don't know what "you" are
> talking about because its so damn obvious that god is "both" a plate of
> spaghetti and a magic hat, at the same time, that things really go down
> hill for everyone not "in the know". lol
LOLz. Look at the atheists making fun of their fav subject and here I am still
feeding them! Really, what would you do with your boring vulcan/madonna dual
lifes if there was no one you could mock of? probably commit suicide to see if
they were right...
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On 18-Jan-09 21:43, Patrick Elliott wrote:
> andrel wrote:
>> Ah, 'teach' may be the important word here. Most people I have met are
>> not from churches that teach missionary actions. Apart from the
>> Jehovah witnesses that come to the door (must be 9 years since I saw
>> the last one). Catholics here tend to not take serious anybody from
>> the ranks of bishop up. I have yet to meet a Muslim that has taken
>> it's faith serious enough to even know how to explain his faith to an
>> infidel. In short, all religious persons I know personally that are
>> serious about their faith and every church they are in are not of the
>> missionary type. Remember, I live in the Netherlands.
>
> And that, my friend, is likely precisely why it harder to take people at
> face value for me than it is for you. The ones like you talk about, even
> if they may be a slim majority in the US, and I am not that certain of
> that, are most definitely "not" the sort you ***see*** doing most
> charity work, or seeking to help people, etc. There is a bias, even
> among many liberal church goers in the US, that when someone opens a
> soup kitchen, one of the first questions isn't, "How many people did it
> feed?", but, "Do they preach to them before they let them eat it?" At
> best, the ones like those you are used to, try real hard to avoid
> thinking about that question, but if asked, can't honestly reply that it
> didn't occur to them. Remember I live in the good old US of A-hole here.
There are a few soup kitchens and that sort of thing in this country,
but hardly visible. You have to be homeless to know where they are, I
guess. Is there one in the town (140000 inhabitants) where I live? I
don't know. Do we have homeless people here? Sometimes I see one or two
in the summer, I think they have now migrated to the warmer Amsterdam.
Indeed our difference in experience with religious people could be
influenced by the difference in social system.
I have never been in a soup kitchen, but I assume I will be in something
similar in the near future (my sister is involved in one for (mainly)
illegal immigrants). When I am there I'll check the level of preaching.
It is related to a church. I am not sure which one, could be a born
again-ish type.
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On 18-Jan-09 22:06, Patrick Elliott wrote:
> Darren New wrote:
>> Patrick Elliott wrote:
>>> not the least being self contradictions,
>>
>> At least one highly religious person I had an opportunity to interact
>> with for hours at a time face to face has convinced me that self
>> contradictions aren't a problem in religion. As long as you're being
>> irrational, why stick with modus ponens?
>>
> Yes, well.. Its when they then insist that you don't know what "you" are
> talking about because its so damn obvious that god is "both" a plate of
> spaghetti and a magic hat, at the same time,
I think the pastafarians might take that as an insult to his holy
noodleness.
> that things really go down
> hill for everyone not "in the know". lol
>
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Patrick Elliott wrote:
> Darren New wrote:
>> Saul Luizaga wrote:
>>> This question denotes wisdom because you are willing to search and
>>> learn contrary to Patrick that only writes "you are deluding yourself
>>> you are being a moron, for your own sake STOP!!!".
>>
>> Yes. That's why I said I'm an atheist, but not like Patrick. For one
>> thing, I've accepted that irrationality is not always bad.
>>
> He is putting words in my mouth and you are letting him?
I said nothing of the sort. I simply said I'm not like you. :-)
I suppose one reading of what I said might imply I agree with him, but that
wasn't my intention.
> The cognitive dissonance involved is just more than I am willing to put up with,
especially when
> he starts claiming that I don't have friends of family that can "love
> each other like a theist can!"
Yes. That part is rather insulting.
> as though they where all brand new, no one has heard them before, etc.
Agreed. Sometimes it seems like Saul is actually interested in
conversation, and sometimes it seems like he's interested in converting.
Usually it's pretty easy to tell which is which by counting questions vs
assertions.
> Though, I admit, the funniest ones are the
The funniest ones for me are the ones that feel they have to help their
deity in his work, like *they* can show me the way to religion better than
their own God can. Funny, and annoying. :-)
> as though belief in god is like me deciding not to get
> out of bed when I wake up, and instead deciding to stay under the covers
> for a few more minutes, despite having things I need to do that day.
It's that whole "free will" bit that explains evil in the world.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Why is there a chainsaw in DOOM?
There aren't any trees on Mars.
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nemesis wrote:
> Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
>> nemesis wrote:
>>> He's also The guy who defined man and woman. ;)
>> No he isn't. Once you leap from "the creator of the Big Bang" to "the guy
>> who tells you how you run your life", that's when I get annoyed.
>
> How you go from "guy who defined man and woman" to "guy who tells you how you
> run your life"?
We call it Proposition 8, making it impossible (for example) for one man to
designate another man as the person to make emergency medical decisions for
him, requiring him to choose a female instead.
Sharia is pretty harsh on homosexuality as well.
If you want your god to "define" man and woman without assigning any roles,
I'm cool with that too. Sadly, I don't believe there are many people who
think God cares about which is a man and which is a woman that doesn't also
believe that some combinations deserve punishment.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Why is there a chainsaw in DOOM?
There aren't any trees on Mars.
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