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From: Darren New
Subject: This is why Windows doesn't need a package manager
Date: 17 Aug 2008 18:21:13
Message: <48a8a459$1@news.povray.org>
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http://blog.angulosolido.pt/2008/08/firefox-3-gtk-210-horror-show-open.html
And this is the sort of thing that RPMs don't do for you that the
Singularity thing does (and more):
http://www.linux.com/feature/144170
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
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From: Warp
Subject: Re: This is why Windows doesn't need a package manager
Date: 17 Aug 2008 19:28:15
Message: <48a8b40d@news.povray.org>
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Darren New <dne### [at] san rr com> wrote:
> http://blog.angulosolido.pt/2008/08/firefox-3-gtk-210-horror-show-open.html
First you write the subject "this is why Windows doesn't need a package
manager" and then you present your argument: One piece of software which
requires a certain version of KDE or newer.
The connection is so horribly inconsequencial, twisted and intentionally
provocative that I'm not going to even bother with it. What you wrote was,
in common internet parlance, pure trolling.
For a time I seriously thought you finally were above such lowly trolling,
but seemingly I was wrong.
> And this is the sort of thing that RPMs don't do for you that the
> Singularity thing does (and more):
> http://www.linux.com/feature/144170
Uh? Maybe you mispasted a link or something? I really can't see the
connection.
--
- Warp
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From: Darren New
Subject: Re: This is why Windows doesn't need a package manager
Date: 17 Aug 2008 19:38:20
Message: <48a8b66c@news.povray.org>
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Warp wrote:
> Darren New <dne### [at] san rr com> wrote:
>> http://blog.angulosolido.pt/2008/08/firefox-3-gtk-210-horror-show-open.html
>
> First you write the subject "this is why Windows doesn't need a package
> manager" and then you present your argument: One piece of software which
> requires a certain version of KDE or newer.
Um, no. It's because you can bundle all that stuff in with the
application, but Linux doesn't. (Maybe it could, but it doesn't.) It
isn't an argument, it's an example. The argument is even simpler: lots
of Windows software wouldn't sell if you needed to buy other software
before you could install it. Unless it's (say) some business software
that's a plug-in for Outlook, or a plug-in for WMP or something.
> For a time I seriously thought you finally were above such lowly trolling,
> but seemingly I was wrong.
It wasn't really trolling[1]. It was a continuation of a previous
conversation, where someone was saying that Windows was poor because it
didn't have a package manager. I was pointing out that pretty much every
Windows program is a stand-alone install, so it doesn't need a package
manager. When it's not stand-alone and needs DirectX or .NET or
something, that comes with the install. If your OS needs to upgrade 25
packages to make Firefox work, then you better have a package manager,
yes. If your distributions tend to be stand-alone, then you don't. I,
personally, would rather not need a package manager than to have one.
[1] I figured it would get a knee-jerk reaction, but it wasn't really
intended as trolling. It was intended to perhaps start a conversation or
clarify an earlier one, since when I made assertions earlier I didn't
have an example.
>> And this is the sort of thing that RPMs don't do for you that the
>> Singularity thing does (and more):
>
>> http://www.linux.com/feature/144170
>
> Uh? Maybe you mispasted a link or something? I really can't see the
> connection.
I'm giving an example of an add-on service for Linux package management
that checks the same sorts of things that the Singularity "package
service" checks. Just a bit of a continuation of why I earlier said that
"RPM doesn't do what Singularity does". It's checking the same sorts of
things that Singularity checks in addition to the right versions of
stuff being listed as being installed.
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
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From: John VanSickle
Subject: Re: This is why Windows doesn't need a package manager
Date: 17 Aug 2008 20:45:59
Message: <48a8c647@news.povray.org>
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Darren New wrote:
> Um, no. It's because you can bundle all that stuff in with the
> application, but Linux doesn't. (Maybe it could, but it doesn't.) It
> isn't an argument, it's an example. The argument is even simpler: lots
> of Windows software wouldn't sell if you needed to buy other software
> before you could install it. Unless it's (say) some business software
> that's a plug-in for Outlook, or a plug-in for WMP or something.
This is not symptomatic of a flaw in Linux. I am sure that Linux apps
could just as easily be distributed as binaries which fully install
everything needed to run the application.
The reason that Windows apps would not succeed this way while Linux apps
do is because Windows users have come to expect complete support from
the installer, whereas Linux users are accustomed to doing more of the
legwork. Linux is far more of an OS for gurus and hobbyists, while
Windows is marketed towards people who never want to "lift the hood," so
to speak, and would be utterly lost if they ever had to.
Regards,
John
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From: Sabrina Kilian
Subject: Re: This is why Windows doesn't need a package manager
Date: 17 Aug 2008 22:39:55
Message: <48a8e0fb$1@news.povray.org>
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Darren New wrote:
> http://blog.angulosolido.pt/2008/08/firefox-3-gtk-210-horror-show-open.html
>
> And this is the sort of thing that RPMs don't do for you that the
> Singularity thing does (and more):
>
> http://www.linux.com/feature/144170
>
So, the goal of a package manager is to have just the packages you need
installed, and keep the upstream developer from having to include all
the libraries they and everyone else use in each package, and it fails
because it does exactly that?
It seemed like the guy might have had a good complaint of 'Mozilla
shouldn't use GTK 2.10.6, and should have used 2.6' except that they
probably would have if they could. Maybe he should really be complaining
about how these 'long use, stable libraries' keep having updates. Why
won't those developers just leave it alone!
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From: Eero Ahonen
Subject: Re: This is why Windows doesn't need a package manager
Date: 18 Aug 2008 03:28:21
Message: <48a92495@news.povray.org>
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Darren New wrote:
>
> Um, no. It's because you can bundle all that stuff in with the
> application, but Linux doesn't. (Maybe it could, but it doesn't.)
Yep, it could, but in this case, it doesn't. OTOH, FF3 also available in
sources, so repo-admins could have compiled it with statically linked
GTK for theier distros instead of letting dynamically linked in.
Oh, wait... There's no mention that FF3 came from reposity, so I'll need
to assume it came as single binary-packet with it's own installer. Why
wasn't it installed via the package manager?
> It
> isn't an argument, it's an example. The argument is even simpler: lots
> of Windows software wouldn't sell if you needed to buy other software
> before you could install it. Unless it's (say) some business software
> that's a plug-in for Outlook, or a plug-in for WMP or something.
True, neither would such software sell for Linux. I'm sure there would
be loads of refund-requests of FF3 after that kind of screwup, if it
wasn't free of cost.
> It wasn't really trolling[1]. It was a continuation of a previous
> conversation, where someone was saying that Windows was poor because it
> didn't have a package manager.
I guess this means our conversation at p.o-t.f.h.b.b.b? I wasn't saying
Windows is poor because it doesn't have a package manager (rpm, dpkg
oslt). What I did say is I'd like to have a software reposity for
Windows, to be used as easily as in Linux (ie Portage). There are
practically really low amount of dependencies at Windows-world, but
there's still a pretty load of software.
> I was pointing out that pretty much every
> Windows program is a stand-alone install, so it doesn't need a package
> manager.
I'd (I, as me, so that being *an opinion*) still like to install
Irfanview, Firefox, GIMP and other software with "install irfanview
firefox gimp" -style command instead of surfing the 'net, downloading
each packet individually and running them.
> When it's not stand-alone and needs DirectX or .NET or
> something, that comes with the install.
Not always (actually I can't remember a single .NET -software I've
installed that inholds the .NET system), but luckily they are easy to
find from MS's site (after you work out *which* version of .NET you
need[1]). I'd still like (it's still an opinion) do that with "install
.net-2" (yes, after I work out which version of .NET I need[1], because
there's no package manager).
[1] .NET ain't fully downwards-compatible, so all .NET1 -software won't
work on .NET2 and all .NET2 -software won't work on .NET3. I don't know
if this is problem/reason of .NET or stupid programmers, but it's one of
the rare system today, which need to have an exact version of such
system on Windows. Java is another example of such system.
> If your OS needs to upgrade 25
> packages to make Firefox work, then you better have a package manager,
> yes.
Assuming from that web-page, the Windows-binaries of FF3 are
statistically linked, Linux-binaries aren't. If Windows-binaries weren't
(yep, they don't have to be), you'd still need to upgrade GTK on Windows
also - and possibly the other software that rely on GTK (which are rare
at Windows -world, that's what makes the difference and what makes
static linking of such libraries more reasonable than dynamic linking).
> If your distributions tend to be stand-alone, then you don't. I,
> personally, would rather not need a package manager than to have one.
I, personally, would rather go start-install-"firefox3" or
start-run-"install firefox3" than
start-applications-seamonkey-seamonkey-"http://www.firefox.com"-download-setup.exe.
Even when there's no dependencies or other software to be installed.
*That's* what I ment earlier.
--
Eero "Aero" Ahonen
http://www.zbxt.net
aer### [at] removethis zbxt net invalid
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From: Warp
Subject: Re: This is why Windows doesn't need a package manager
Date: 18 Aug 2008 09:45:55
Message: <48a97d13@news.povray.org>
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Darren New <dne### [at] san rr com> wrote:
> Um, no. It's because you can bundle all that stuff in with the
> application, but Linux doesn't.
Linux? I thought you were talking about Firefox. Firefox != Linux.
There's nothing stopping anyone from including whatever the program
needs in the installation package (or even linking everything statically
in the binary), but where do you draw the line? Should libc.so be included?
You know, maybe someone doesn't have it, so better include it just in case,
no?
In Windows you are forced to always include everything in the package.
Then you end up with the problem of your system having hundreds of thousands
of dll files which you just can't delete because you can't know if something
is using it. With a package manager you can try to remove some library, but
if something requires that library, the package manager not only tells you
that this is so, but it even tells you *which* apps require that library,
and it even offers you the option of uninstalling also those apps if you
want.
--
- Warp
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From: Eero Ahonen
Subject: Re: This is why Windows doesn't need a package manager
Date: 18 Aug 2008 10:26:29
Message: <48a98695$1@news.povray.org>
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Warp wrote:
>
> In Windows you are forced to always include everything in the package.
>
To be precise, you're not. For example Gimp at least used to (I don't
know if it still does - haven't used Gimp for Win for a while) use
dynamically linked GTK, so you had to install GTK first.
But if you *sell* a software saying "This will work on Windows[1] - just
install it" it *has* to work on "plain" Windows[1] to keep your
customers happy, that's why practically all commercial software packages
include everything possibly needed (expect Windows[1] itself) - and from
there it has got to be normal approach for Windows-world (which is
highly commercial, even though there are lot of free software for
Windows also).
[1] Heck, change this to anything you want - iPhone, calculator, RH6.2
(Zoot), *anything*. If you promise your product to work on XYZ, it *has
to* work on XYZ.
--
Eero "Aero" Ahonen
http://www.zbxt.net
aer### [at] removethis zbxt net invalid
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From: Jim Henderson
Subject: Re: This is why Windows doesn't need a package manager
Date: 18 Aug 2008 13:08:43
Message: <48a9ac9b$1@news.povray.org>
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On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 16:38:19 -0700, Darren New wrote:
> Um, no. It's because you can bundle all that stuff in with the
> application, but Linux doesn't. (Maybe it could, but it doesn't.)
There are a great many Linux apps that use static linking to bundle the
necessary libraries with the package.
Jim
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From: Darren New
Subject: Re: This is why Windows doesn't need a package manager
Date: 18 Aug 2008 13:23:14
Message: <48a9b002@news.povray.org>
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John VanSickle wrote:
> Darren New wrote:
>
>> Um, no. It's because you can bundle all that stuff in with the
>> application, but Linux doesn't. (Maybe it could, but it doesn't.) It
>> isn't an argument, it's an example. The argument is even simpler: lots
>> of Windows software wouldn't sell if you needed to buy other software
>> before you could install it. Unless it's (say) some business software
>> that's a plug-in for Outlook, or a plug-in for WMP or something.
>
> This is not symptomatic of a flaw in Linux.
You know, I begin to see what Warp means when he says everyone takes the
worst possible reading of something.
Who said anything about "a flaw in Linux"? Not I! I said "A package
manager in Linux." Unless you think having a package manager is
inherently a flaw.
> I am sure that Linux apps
> could just as easily be distributed as binaries which fully install
> everything needed to run the application.
One would expect so, yes.
> The reason that Windows apps would not succeed this way while Linux apps
> do is because Windows users have come to expect complete support from
> the installer, whereas Linux users are accustomed to doing more of the
> legwork. Linux is far more of an OS for gurus and hobbyists, while
> Windows is marketed towards people who never want to "lift the hood," so
> to speak, and would be utterly lost if they ever had to.
Yep. And?
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
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