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On 13-Jul-08 20:53, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> John VanSickle wrote:
>
>> There were games on the Apple (6502-based) which had seven versions of
>> any given sprite graphic so that they wouldn't have to be shifted in
>> order to display them on the screen. 8-bit game programmers learned
>> much about squeezing every last drop of performance out of limited
>> speed and memory.
>
> Wouldn't having 7 copies of the same data eat more memory?
>
> Did it actually store 7 copies, or just precompute them?
>
> Also... Apple made a 6502-based product??
Hmm?? Ah, good old Andy at his best.
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>> Also... Apple made a 6502-based product??
>
> Hmm?? Ah, good old Andy at his best.
Remember: I've never actually *seen* an Apple, except on TV. So I'm not
extremely knowledgable about them.
But anyway, I was under the impression they used to be M68k-based, and
then PPC, and then recently went to Intel Core 2.
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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On 13-Jul-08 21:47, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>> Also... Apple made a 6502-based product??
>>
>> Hmm?? Ah, good old Andy at his best.
>
> Remember: I've never actually *seen* an Apple, except on TV. So I'm not
> extremely knowledgable about them.
>
> But anyway, I was under the impression they used to be M68k-based, and
> then PPC, and then recently went to Intel Core 2.
Most people here might have consulted wikipedia or similar before
posting. Then again you wouldn't be our mascot if you did. You are
really good at mascotting you know. ;)
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andrel wrote:
> Most people here might have consulted wikipedia or similar before
> posting. Then again you wouldn't be our mascot if you did. You are
> really good at mascotting you know. ;)
Well if somebody says there was one, I guess there probably was one. I
was more interjecting with surprise than actually denying the fact. ;-)
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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Warp wrote:
> With the z80 you can have 16-bit literals, perform 16-bit ALU operations
> (such as additions, substractions, shifts, etc), you can address the entire
> memory with one single 16-bit register, etc. I don't understand what's *not*
> 16-bit about the z80.
OK. I must be confusing the Z80 with the 8080, perhaps. I know the 8080
had no 16-bit registers except PC and SP. HL was two registers, for
example.
> Just because the 16-bit operations are performed on pairs of 8-bit
> registers that doesn't make it any less of a 16-bit operation.
OK. I guess we're just disagreeing about whether that ability makes a
CPU an "8-bit CPU" or a "16-bit CPU".
I mean, I've used mainframes with "string" type opcodes that would
operate on 1KBytes at a time. That wouldn't really make them a KByte
CPU. :-)
>> Almost everyone calls the processor the number of bits on the data bus,
>> fwiw, when talking about this stuff.
>
> How is that even useful?
Very useful for hardware type people. Also unambiguous. Plus, I didn't
claim it was useful. I merely said it's what I noticed when I read all
the literature.
Maybe because the "definitive" literature written by places like Intel
are generally addressing people who build motherboards for their chips
and such.
> I understand "8-bit" to mean "has 8-bit registers, and you can only
> perform an 8-bit operation with a single opcode, because registers can
> only hold 8 bits of data". Likewise for any other bitsize.
Well, the 6502 had 16-bit absolute jumps, IIRC. I wouldn't call it a
16-bit CPU.
> Btw, didn't the 386 usually have a 16-bit data bus? The 386 is still
> a 32-bit processor, though.
I don't remember the bus size. But at this point, I think we're more
arguing what you call the CPU than anything real about the CPU.
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
Helpful housekeeping hints:
Check your feather pillows for holes
before putting them in the washing machine.
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somebody <x### [at] y com> wrote:
> "Warp" <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote
> > Just because the 16-bit operations are performed on pairs of 8-bit
> > registers that doesn't make it any less of a 16-bit operation. The
> > crucial thing is that you can perform a 16-bit operation with *one*
> > single opcode.
> It doesn't work like that. Otherwise, we should call x86 architecture 64
> bits, 128 bits or even higher.
I was talking about *all* the ALU operations, such as addition,
substraction, etc. In some processors there might be a few special
opcodes that perform an operation with larger numbers by using several
registers (such as the shifting of two registers as if they were one
in x86), but these are rare.
If it was about data bus width, then some 32-bit processors would
in reality be 128-bit or 256-bit because they have really wide data
buses. Heck, if I remember correctly, even the Pentium4 has a 64-bit
data bus, yet it's still a 32-bit processor.
--
- Warp
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andrel <a_l### [at] hotmailcom> wrote:
> Most people here might have consulted wikipedia or similar before
> posting.
When I write like this, I get accused of bullying.
--
- Warp
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On 13-Jul-08 22:17, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> andrel wrote:
>
>> Most people here might have consulted wikipedia or similar before
>> posting. Then again you wouldn't be our mascot if you did. You are
>> really good at mascotting you know. ;)
>
> Well if somebody says there was one, I guess there probably was one. I
> was more interjecting with surprise than actually denying the fact. ;-)
>
FYI we are talking about the Apple II without which the whole concept of
a personal computer that anyone could buy would not have existed. OK
another computer would have done it a few years later, but that is not
the point.
It feels a bit like someone working with genetic material everyday and
then say: 'Mendel, never heard of that guy, or was it a girl?'. Anyway,
if we compiled a list of entertaining books about the history of
computers and surrounding science is there any change you'd read them?
When is your birthday?
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Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> > Just because the 16-bit operations are performed on pairs of 8-bit
> > registers that doesn't make it any less of a 16-bit operation.
> OK. I guess we're just disagreeing about whether that ability makes a
> CPU an "8-bit CPU" or a "16-bit CPU".
IMO "16-bit CPU" means "can perform most calculations on 16-bit values
with single opcodes". There are examples of true 8-bit processors where
you really are limited to 8-bit operations (and if you want to calculate
on larger numbers you have to use at least two opcodes, the second one
using the possible flag set by the previous one).
> I mean, I've used mainframes with "string" type opcodes that would
> operate on 1KBytes at a time. That wouldn't really make them a KByte
> CPU. :-)
The question is whether its registers were 1kB in size or not.
Just because you can fill 1MB of memory with zeros using a single opcode
doesn't tell anything about the bitsize of the registers and how the CPU
uses them.
> > I understand "8-bit" to mean "has 8-bit registers, and you can only
> > perform an 8-bit operation with a single opcode, because registers can
> > only hold 8 bits of data". Likewise for any other bitsize.
> Well, the 6502 had 16-bit absolute jumps, IIRC. I wouldn't call it a
> 16-bit CPU.
Could you calculate eg. additions and substractions using 16-bit values
with single opcodes?
--
- Warp
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andrel wrote:
> FYI we are talking about the Apple II without which the whole concept of
> a personal computer that anyone could buy would not have existed. OK
> another computer would have done it a few years later, but that is not
> the point.
OOC, when did this happen? I have a sneaking suspicion it might have
been before I was born...
> It feels a bit like someone working with genetic material everyday and
> then say: 'Mendel, never heard of that guy, or was it a girl?'.
Still not seeing why it's important for such a person to have heard of
Mendel...
I mean, hell, I use electricity every single day. I have *no clue* who
figured out that it exists though... why is that a problem?
> Anyway,
> if we compiled a list of entertaining books about the history of
> computers and surrounding science is there any change you'd read them?
Um... I'm going to walk round the Science Museum tomorrow? Does that count?
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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