Orchid XP v7 wrote:
>>>> Just FYI, Russell did for set theory (i.e., the basis of most or all 
>>>> modern math) what Godel and Turing did for their fields.
>>>
>>> *resists urge to ask who Godel is*
>>>
>> You remember the fixed point operator of lambda calculus? and how you 
>> can use that to prove that if you try to assign a meaning of true and 
>> false to every lambda expression the fixed point of the negation can 
>> neither be true or false? Hence it is impossible to decide the truth 
>> of every lambda expression. Goedel (that is an o-umlaut hence the 
>> spelling with and without e) did the same for ordinary logic. Proving 
>> that the attempts of Russel to combine all logic into one complete 
>> theory was in vain. There will always be statements that can not be 
>> proven within a set of axioms and theories.
>>
>> But I suspect this time you were joking.
> 
> The fixed-point operator confounds me. I really don't get it...
> 
What exactly don't you get, the operator, the theorem or why it is 
important?

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>> The fixed-point operator confounds me. I really don't get it...
>>
> What exactly don't you get, the operator, the theorem or why it is 
> important?

 From what little I understand, the fixed point operator takes an 
arbitrary function and finds its "least fixed point". I don't really 
understand how that can be possible...

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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Darren New wrote:
> andrel wrote:
>> There will always be statements that can not be proven within a set of 
>> axioms and theories.
> 
> The one part of this I've never figured out is...

> 
IIRC it is one of those proofs where you assume something is possible. 
Then you construct the most general way to do it and finally conclude 
that in all circumstances you run into contradictions. Hence the 
assumption that it is possible must be false.

> How can you say something is unprovable if you can give a constructive 
> proof of how to generate that which you claim your formal system can't 
> generate?
> 
> It seems either you have to step outside the system to generate the 
> unprovable string, or the string really isn't unprovable within the 
> system and you're relying on intuition to "prove" it's unprovable.
> 
> Can someone clear that bit up for me?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [1] Yes, I bothered to fire up the non-English-character utility this 
> time. :-)

I seem to remember that the Germans were going to abolish all umlauts in 
favor of an 'e' after the vowel, in order to conform to 'international' 
practices (mainly those in Redmont). Any Germans out there to assure me 
that was only a nightmare?
Not sure anyway if that rule would apply to non-resident Germans and 
dead ones as well...Returning from google, he wasn't a German, so his 
name will be safe for future generations.

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On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 21:27:23 +0000, Orchid XP v7 wrote:

>>> Interesting. IME, "travel" involves sitting in a moving vehicle for
>>> hours feeling bored and uncomfortable. And let's put it this way: I
>>> can't interact with people who speak my own language. How am I
>>> supposed to get anywhere with people who don't even know what I'm
>>> saying?
>> 
>> English is understood in many parts of the world.
> 
> Well, certainly a fair few waitresses in Switzerland spoke English
> vastly better than I speak French. But not all of them. Heh. Do you
> know, I actually still have a reciept in my jacket pocket so people know
> what I'm after...

Oh, sure; when I was in Moscow, I had to communicate with someone who 
spoke no English (and I spoke no Russian - well, maybe 5 or 6 words 
total), and managed just fine.  My dad was in Europe during WWII, and he 
had conversations with German soldiers even though he spoke no German - 
just high-school French.  He said that was very strange.

>>> (I was about to add "and probably don't like me", but then I
>>> remembered that that's normal anyway...)
>> 
>> I call bullshit, Andy.  You may not realize it, but there are plenty of
>> people who like you.
> 
> Er... really? :-.

Have a look around this group.  No, really, I mean it.  A lot of people 
here have taken a fair amount of time to talk with you and interact.  
Right now, it's the middle of my business day, and I'm chatting away with 
you instead of getting work done that I need to do.

I don't spend time talking to people I don't like.  I think you've got a 
very bizzare self-perception (though I think I understand why that is).

>> I've told you before, I don't interact with people I don't like, and
>> I'm interacting with you.  That offer to go out for a Dr. Pepper when
>> we're next over in the UK is still on, BTW.
> 
> *makes mental note* "Jim Henderson"...

It's about time. :-)

>> Unfortunately, it's still going to be a little bit before I actually
>> get there, what with the US economy being tanked at the moment (and the
>> exchange rates being great for those from Europe coming over here but
>> not so good for those from the US going to visit in Europe).
> 
> The US economy is "tanked"? I thought they were the richest nation on
> Earth?

People argue about the real state of the economy over here; the dollar 
vs. the Euro and the British Pound is at a very low point; today it's 
about $1.99 to the GBP, and $1.49 to the Euro.

But also, we currently have a much higher debt (as a country) than we did 
8 years ago (mostly due to spending on the Iraq war).

Then we also have the fallout from the sub-prime lending scandal, which 
has depressed housing values over the last few months (and made it very 
difficult to sell property as a consequence in large parts of the 
country; here in Utah, the values didn't drop nearly as much as in other 
places, so the market's not as bad here as it is, say, in Minnesota - 
where my mom has been trying to sell her house since last April).

Jim

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On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 21:52:25 +0100, andrel wrote:

>> (This list is not all-inclusive, by any means)
>> 
> Yes, you also suck at making lists.

Oh, crap, you're right. :-)

Jim

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Orchid XP v7 wrote:
> andrel wrote:
> 
>>> Interesting. IME, "travel" involves sitting in a moving vehicle for 
>>> hours feeling bored and uncomfortable. And let's put it this way: I 
>>> can't interact with people who speak my own language. How am I 
>>> supposed to get anywhere with people who don't even know what I'm 
>>> saying?
>>>
>> One of the great things of being abroad is that they don't know you 
>> have problems interacting. They'll put it down to you being a 
>> foreigner and will be much more responsive than the people around you 
>> who know how a ordinary member of society should behave.
> 
> You know what? It might just be the whole "the grass is greener" trip, 
> but it certainly seems that the people in Switzerland were a lot more 
> friendly than the people over here. Maybe they just take customer 
> service more seriously, IDK...
You know what? The Swiss visiting your home town will feel the same.
> 
>>> (I was about to add "and probably don't like me", but then I 
>>> remembered that that's normal anyway...)
>>
>> You know what? I guess quite a lot of people here might like you when 
>> you would meet them IRL. Unlikely of course as you don't travel and 
>> most of us only go to interesting places when given a choice.
> 
> The thing about the Internet... the people you meet are almost 
> guaranteed to live really far away. Ah well!
> 
That mainly depends on how you use it. If you participate in an 
international forum with relative few members that may be right. 
Subscribe to a local gay community website and the result may be different.

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Orchid XP v7 wrote:
>>> The fixed-point operator confounds me. I really don't get it...
>>>
>> What exactly don't you get, the operator, the theorem or why it is 
>> important?
> 
>  From what little I understand, the fixed point operator takes an 
> arbitrary function and finds its "least fixed point". I don't really 
> understand how that can be possible...
> 
If we are still talking about lambda calculus, take the Y operator, that 
one is pretty obvious, I would think. (not sure about the 'least', but I 
have dislocated my 'Barendrecht' and it is time to get some sleep.

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Invisible wrote:
>>     Cheap way: Read the news (while trying to gain the skill of what news
>> to read and what not to).
> 
> I never do this. The news is far too damn depressing.

	And why is that?

	It's really not any worse than in the past. As long as you realize that
a lot of news will focus on the negative, when it's not representative
of the reality, it shouldn't depress you too much. For every bad news,
there's good stuff going on - you just don't hear about it.

	Which is all part of the "skill".

	Anyway, if it's too depressing, there are other ways to know about
other countries/cultures. I'll hesitantly suggest Global Voices
(hesitantly as I've read some of the blog selections from certain
countries and some of them are downright unrepresentative of their
cultures): http://www.globalvoicesonline.org/

	Another option is look around in the city you live in. There may be
cheap/free resources for learning about foreign cultures. Here in the
US, in universities, there are many student organizations representing
various countries, and very often a few among those are "general" ones
for international students - they're very often welcoming of non-student
locals...

>>     Expensive way: Travel.
> 
> I never did understand how travel is supposed to teach you anything.
> (Other than how to feel lost and afraid - which I already know how to do.)

	Well, I guess I meant something a bit more extensive than, say, tourist
type travel. Spending time elsewhere due to work (month, year, etc)
would be a good example - you'll have to deal with a lot of local
factors that tourists wouldn't.

	Seriously, though. Over here at least, there are a LOT of groups trying
to be very vocal on a lot of issues regarding other countries (a number
of them being somewhat kooky). Maybe your town doesn't have as much, but
I'm sure you'll find some if you actually looked. Do they have bulletin
boards in stores, etc where you live? They often post these things
there. Or find a community center and look at their schedule, and see
who's reserved the place for what.

-- 
"A man doesn't know what happiness is until he's married. By then it's
too late." - Frank Sinatra


                    /\  /\               /\  /
                   /  \/  \ u e e n     /  \/  a w a z
                       >>>>>>mue### [at] nawazorg<<<<<<
                                   anl

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andrel wrote:
> One of the great things of being abroad is that they don't know you have
> problems interacting. They'll put it down to you being a foreigner and
> will be much more responsive than the people around you who know how a
> ordinary member of society should behave.

	Sad truth about human nature.

-- 
"A man doesn't know what happiness is until he's married. By then it's
too late." - Frank Sinatra


                    /\  /\               /\  /
                   /  \/  \ u e e n     /  \/  a w a z
                       >>>>>>mue### [at] nawazorg<<<<<<
                                   anl

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Invisible wrote:
> Interesting. IME, "travel" involves sitting in a moving vehicle for
> hours feeling bored and uncomfortable. And let's put it this way: I
> can't interact with people who speak my own language. How am I supposed
> to get anywhere with people who don't even know what I'm saying?

	While Mandarin may (still) have the lead, I'm sure if you look at the
geographic spread, English is the most prevalent language. You can't
hide behind that excuse.

-- 
"A man doesn't know what happiness is until he's married. By then it's
too late." - Frank Sinatra


                    /\  /\               /\  /
                   /  \/  \ u e e n     /  \/  a w a z
                       >>>>>>mue### [at] nawazorg<<<<<<
                                   anl

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