Tim Cook wrote:
> So the taxi drivers on the moon both do and do not accept tips.
> 

Schrödinger's Taxi Company. Where you aren't sure if you will survive
the trip, or even if you ever arrived.

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And lo on Fri, 25 Jan 2008 17:17:10 -0000, Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom>  
did spake, saying:

> Phil Cook wrote:
>> And lo on Thu, 24 Jan 2008 03:39:38 -0000, Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom>  
>> did spake, saying:
>>
>>> Is there free will in Heaven?
>>>
>>>
>>> (FWIW, I think either answer leads to some obvious problems. :-)
>>  Sure, except as soon as you exercise it in a way contrary to the  
>> ruling authorities you'll be kicked out. It's like 1984 with harps and  
>> clouds.
>
> Well, that was kind of the obvious problem with the answer yes. *Can*  
> you get kicked out?

There's a precedent.

> If so, why is Heaven any better than Earth?

It's got those harps and clouds and the fullsome sense of smugness caused  
by being there.

Okay in all seriousness if everyone thinks the same way in Heaven then  
it's possible that the only way in is to display those same traits on  
Earth. Therefore you have no free will nor free will to lose you are  
simply repeating your Earthly actions in Heaven. If you were the type of  
person to become disatisfied with that then you wouldn't have been allowed  
in. Satan/Lucifer/Adversary doesn't count as he was always in Heaven.

-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

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And lo on Sat, 26 Jan 2008 04:43:44 -0000, Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom>  
did spake, saying:

> Patrick Elliott wrote:
>> The assumption that such a place exists at all,
>
> Then the answer would be "no", not "yes". :-) If the place doesn't  
> exist, then asking whether there's something at that place would be  
> answered "no". Do the taxi drivers on the moon accept tips? No.
>
> Even taking as an assumption that heaven exists, the question raises  
> what I think are obvious problems.
>
> What if you go to (Christian) Heaven, meet Mohammed, and he convinces  
> you that Jesus isn't your Savior after all?  (OK, well, that's assuming  
> Mohammed went to heaven, which according to christians he wouldn't, but  
> just say...)
>
> 1) God kicks you out. So heaven isn't eternal after all.
>
> 2) God lets you stay. So God's just yanking your chain on Earth,  
> intentionally putting you into a situation where he can punish you for  
> something that doesn't bother him enough to kick you out once you're  
> there.
>
> 3) You can't make that choice. Then again, free will is given to humans  
> only to trap them into going to Hell anyway.

"Mock The Week" got it right. There is only one true religion when you die  
you end up in a room with representatives of all the world's religions  
lined up in a row. You go to the relgion of your chose and they hold up a  
little card with "Bluff" written on it.

-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

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"Phil Cook" <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote:
> It's got those harps and clouds and the fullsome sense of smugness caused
> by being there.
>
> Okay in all seriousness if everyone thinks the same way in Heaven then
> it's possible that the only way in is to display those same traits on
> Earth. Therefore you have no free will nor free will to lose you are
> simply repeating your Earthly actions in Heaven. If you were the type of
> person to become disatisfied with that then you wouldn't have been allowed
> in. Satan/Lucifer/Adversary doesn't count as he was always in Heaven.

Not to sound blasphemous.
But who says that there are individuals. If there might be no free will, it
could also be, that there are no individuals... (invalid logic, but doesn't
matter)
I can't imagine a lot of individuals playing all time similar or same songs with
harp. ;)
"the fullsome sense of smugness caused by being there" sounds like there might
be something, which changes the way you are. -> So no individual anymore? ;)

Regards

              bluetree

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And lo on Mon, 28 Jan 2008 10:22:57 -0000, bluetree <nomail@nomail> did  
spake, saying:

> "Phil Cook" <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote:
>> It's got those harps and clouds and the fullsome sense of smugness  
>> caused
>> by being there.
>>
>> Okay in all seriousness if everyone thinks the same way in Heaven then
>> it's possible that the only way in is to display those same traits on
>> Earth. Therefore you have no free will nor free will to lose you are
>> simply repeating your Earthly actions in Heaven. If you were the type of
>> person to become disatisfied with that then you wouldn't have been  
>> allowed
>> in. Satan/Lucifer/Adversary doesn't count as he was always in Heaven.
>
> Not to sound blasphemous.

Blasphemer! Stone them, stone them!

> But who says that there are individuals. If there might be no free will,  
> it could also be, that there are no individuals... (invalid logic, but  
> doesn't matter)
> I can't imagine a lot of individuals playing all time similar or same  
> songs with harp. ;)

No you're right they could all Become One With The Mind Of God... ooooo!  
Or separate from God in a shiny silvery gestalt from which multiple forms  
can be made and rule over a race of warriors who... oh wait sorry that's  
Deep Space Nine.

> "the fullsome sense of smugness caused by being there" sounds like there  
> might be something, which changes the way you are. -> So no individual  
> anymore? ;)

Hmm think about the types of people who you'd expect to get into Heaven,  
would you want to spend eternity with them in any form? So the person  
who's there either a) wants to be there b) has to be there, or is c)  
stoned.

Back to the serious bit. I think the gestalt or 'one with the mind of God'  
is a possibiity if you think of each individual joining as a voice in the  
choir, similar to that voice in your head telling you that you shouldn't  
eat that gooey cream pie or take a machine-gun to your co-workers...um...  
anyway in theory parts could arise that find itself in contest with the  
majority and might break-away; which would explain the Downfall of the  
Angels. So that would be a yes to free will.


-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

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On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 11:46:58 -0000, "Phil Cook"
<phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote:

>Blasphemer! Stone them, stone them!

Why should the Blasphemers get all the fun :)

A friend of mine explained it perfectly saying.
"When you're dead, you're dead"
That works for me.


Regards
	Stephen

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"Phil Cook" <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote:
> Blasphemer! Stone them, stone them!

No. Don't do it. I believe. I believe everything...

> No you're right they could all Become One With The Mind Of God... ooooo!
> Or separate from God in a shiny silvery gestalt from which multiple forms
> can be made and rule over a race of warriors who... oh wait sorry that's
> Deep Space Nine.

^^
Or they could take the shape of little worm and take over the bodies of some
people, who believe everthing (oh, wait, I'm in danger)... oh wait, that was
Star Gate... :)

> Hmm think about the types of people who you'd expect to get into Heaven,
> would you want to spend eternity with them in any form? So the person
> who's there either a) wants to be there b) has to be there, or is c)
> stoned.

So b) wouldn't have free will.
some of c) as well.
what's about some people of a) who don't want to spend eternity with some
others?

> Back to the serious bit. I think the gestalt or 'one with the mind of God'
> is a possibiity if you think of each individual joining as a voice in the
> choir, similar to that voice in your head telling you that you shouldn't
> eat that gooey cream pie or take a machine-gun to your co-workers...um...
> anyway in theory parts could arise that find itself in contest with the
> majority and might break-away; which would explain the Downfall of the
> Angels. So that would be a yes to free will.


Wouldn't that mean, that those who have a free will, won't be in Heaven? Because
they break away and then are kicked out.


Regards

          bluetree

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Stephen <mcavoysATaolDOTcom@> wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 11:46:58 -0000, "Phil Cook"
> <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote:
>
> >Blasphemer! Stone them, stone them!
>
> Why should the Blasphemers get all the fun :)
>
> A friend of mine explained it perfectly saying.
> "When you're dead, you're dead"
> That works for me.
>
>
> Regards
>  Stephen


Do you think it's fun to get stoned? ;)

Regards
             bluetree

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On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 07:42:57 EST, "bluetree" <nomail@nomail> wrote:

>Stephen <mcavoysATaolDOTcom@> wrote:
>> On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 11:46:58 -0000, "Phil Cook"
>> <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote:
>>
>> >Blasphemer! Stone them, stone them!
>>
>> Why should the Blasphemers get all the fun :)
>>
>> A friend of mine explained it perfectly saying.
>> "When you're dead, you're dead"
>> That works for me.
>>
>>
>> Regards
>>  Stephen
>
>
>Do you think it's fun to get stoned? ;)
>

Yes!
Hit me, hit me :)

Regards
	Stephen

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And lo on Mon, 28 Jan 2008 12:31:46 -0000, bluetree <nomail@nomail> did  
spake, saying:

> "Phil Cook" <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote:
>> Blasphemer! Stone them, stone them!
>
> No. Don't do it. I believe. I believe everything...
>
>> No you're right they could all Become One With The Mind Of God... ooooo!
>> Or separate from God in a shiny silvery gestalt from which multiple  
>> forms
>> can be made and rule over a race of warriors who... oh wait sorry that's
>> Deep Space Nine.
>
> ^^
> Or they could take the shape of little worm and take over the bodies of  
> some
> people, who believe everthing (oh, wait, I'm in danger)... oh wait, that  
> was
> Star Gate... :)
>
>> Hmm think about the types of people who you'd expect to get into Heaven,
>> would you want to spend eternity with them in any form? So the person
>> who's there either a) wants to be there b) has to be there, or is c)
>> stoned.
>
> So b) wouldn't have free will.

Except they realise they don't want to be there, thus have free will.  
Unless you're saying that people in prison don't have free will?

> some of c) as well.

Except they wouldn't care :-)

> what's about some people of a) who don't want to spend eternity with some
> others?

"I'm a Dead Person Get Me Out Of Here", "Dead Big Brother"? That would be  
fun with the reincarnationists "Hey you were voted out last lifetime you  
can't just waltz back in"

>> Back to the serious bit. I think the gestalt or 'one with the mind of  
>> God'
>> is a possibiity if you think of each individual joining as a voice in  
>> the
>> choir, similar to that voice in your head telling you that you shouldn't
>> eat that gooey cream pie or take a machine-gun to your  
>> co-workers...um...
>> anyway in theory parts could arise that find itself in contest with the
>> majority and might break-away; which would explain the Downfall of the
>> Angels. So that would be a yes to free will.
>
> Wouldn't that mean, that those who have a free will, won't be in Heaven?  
> Because they break away and then are kicked out.

Or those that exercise that will in a way contrary to the majority are  
kicked out. Well a majority assuming that it's not just a small bunch of  
people with loud presences.

-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

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