Phil Cook wrote:
> And lo on Thu, 24 Jan 2008 03:39:38 -0000, Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> 
> did spake, saying:
> 
>> Is there free will in Heaven?
>>
>>
>> (FWIW, I think either answer leads to some obvious problems. :-)
> 
> Sure, except as soon as you exercise it in a way contrary to the ruling 
> authorities you'll be kicked out. It's like 1984 with harps and clouds.

Well, that was kind of the obvious problem with the answer yes. *Can* 
you get kicked out? If so, why is Heaven any better than Earth?

-- 
   Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
     It's not feature creep if you put it
     at the end and adjust the release date.

Post a reply to this message

In article <4799594f$1@news.povray.org>, dne### [at] sanrrcom says...
> Patrick Elliott wrote:
> > In article <47993a7b$1@news.povray.org>, dne### [at] sanrrcom says...
> >> andrel wrote:
> >>> Darren New wrote:
> >>>> Is there free will in Heaven?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> (FWIW, I think either answer leads to some obvious problems. :-)
> >>>>
> >>> The question is based on a false assumption. Logic dictates that 
> >>> everything follows from a false assumption so the answer is probably 
yes
> >> Incidentally, if what you mean is "there is no Heaven", then the corre
ct 
> >> answer to the question is "Mu" - the Zen answer that unasks the 
> >> question. :-)
> >>
> > "False" in this instance refers to lack of foundation.
> 
> Lack of foundation for what? It was a question.
> 
> > But, the assumption is false, being unfounded on fact, 
> 
> Which assumption?
> 
The assumption that such a place exists at all, thus rendering the 
question valid. Its like asking if they *have* snow cones at the park on 
GW Bush City, Mars. Its presumes, without evidence, that a) someone 
actually has already built such a city, and b) it could possibly be 
located some place on Mars. You don't even have a place to "put" the 
location you want someone to answer a question about, let alone evidence 
that such a place, assuming you could adequately define "where" it was 
located, exists to *have* anything in. You have to start with something 
known to exist first, like, "Is there intelligent life in Florida School 
Boards?" Mind you, given recent evidence, this question is just as 
nonsensical as yours, but at least we know their is a Florida, and that 
it "contains" School Boards to look for intelligence in. ;)

-- 
void main () {

    if version = "Vista" {
      call slow_by_half();
      call DRM_everything();
    }
    call functional_code();
  }
  else
    call crash_windows();
}

<A HREF='http://www.daz3d.com/index.php?refid=16130551'>Get 3D Models,
 
3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>

Post a reply to this message

Patrick Elliott wrote:
> The assumption that such a place exists at all,

Then the answer would be "no", not "yes". :-) If the place doesn't 
exist, then asking whether there's something at that place would be 
answered "no". Do the taxi drivers on the moon accept tips? No.

Even taking as an assumption that heaven exists, the question raises 
what I think are obvious problems.

What if you go to (Christian) Heaven, meet Mohammed, and he convinces 
you that Jesus isn't your Savior after all?  (OK, well, that's assuming 
Mohammed went to heaven, which according to christians he wouldn't, but 
just say...)

1) God kicks you out. So heaven isn't eternal after all.

2) God lets you stay. So God's just yanking your chain on Earth, 
intentionally putting you into a situation where he can punish you for 
something that doesn't bother him enough to kick you out once you're there.

3) You can't make that choice. Then again, free will is given to humans 
only to trap them into going to Hell anyway.

-- 
   Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
     It's not feature creep if you put it
     at the end and adjust the release date.

Post a reply to this message

Darren New wrote:
> Then the answer would be "no", not "yes". :-) If the place doesn't 
> exist, then asking whether there's something at that place would be 
> answered "no". Do the taxi drivers on the moon accept tips? No.

According to my philosophy 101 teacher at university, you can validly 
say anything about nonexistent things.  All unicorns are chartreuse, no 
harbl which has a frobotz is virpo, that kind of thing.  So the taxi 
drivers on the moon both do and do not accept tips.

-- 
Tim Cook
http://empyrean.digitalartsuk.com

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
GFA dpu- s: a?-- C++(++++) U P? L E--- W++(+++)>$
N++ o? K- w(+) O? M-(--) V? PS+(+++) PE(--) Y(--)
PGP-(--) t* 5++>+++++ X+ R* tv+ b++(+++) DI
D++(---) G(++) e*>++ h+ !r--- !y--
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

Post a reply to this message

Tim Cook <z99### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> Darren New wrote:
> > Then the answer would be "no", not "yes". :-) If the place doesn't
> > exist, then asking whether there's something at that place would be
> > answered "no". Do the taxi drivers on the moon accept tips? No.
>
> According to my philosophy 101 teacher at university, you can validly
> say anything about nonexistent things.  All unicorns are chartreuse, no
> harbl which has a frobotz is virpo, that kind of thing.  So the taxi
> drivers on the moon both do and do not accept tips.

indeed.  Wu/Mu is the correct answer to such questions.

It's the correct answer to this particular question as well, regardless of your
beliefs:  there'd be no need for free will in heaven, because you're in Heaven
for crying out loud!!  Heaven/Nirvana/whatever, you're there! no need for
endless argumentations with strangers about your reasons, no need to disagree
for the sake of disagreement, no tribal wars over some irrelevant material
needs:  just enjoy your perfect comunion with the divine, hope you like your
stay!

Post a reply to this message

Tim Cook wrote:
> All unicorns are chartreuse, 

That's correct, as is "no unicorns are chartreuse". "All unicorns" is 
read as "all unicorns which exist ..." And since there are no unicorns, 
saying "no unicorns have property X" is true also - X(unicorn) is false 
for every unicorn you can supply.

I'm not sure, however, that it's right to say "some unicorns are 
chartreuse". If you say "some unicorns are chartreuse", I can say "point 
to one". "Some unicorns are X" is the same as "There exists at least one 
unicorn which is X."

I think your philosophy professor was wrong. Mine was, several times. 
The midterm paper I did was pointing out the relatively simple flaw in 
the paper he'd had published in some peer-reviewed journal of 
philosophy.  It was kind of obvious to me, being someone who is good at 
finding bugs in software, that what he was saying was trivially 
disprovable with a simple example. That man had a very odd brain.

-- 
   Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
     On what day did God create the body thetans?

Post a reply to this message

Tim Cook wrote:
> So the taxi drivers on the moon both do and do not accept tips.
> 

Schrödinger's Taxi Company. Where you aren't sure if you will survive
the trip, or even if you ever arrived.

Post a reply to this message

And lo on Fri, 25 Jan 2008 17:17:10 -0000, Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom>  
did spake, saying:

> Phil Cook wrote:
>> And lo on Thu, 24 Jan 2008 03:39:38 -0000, Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom>  
>> did spake, saying:
>>
>>> Is there free will in Heaven?
>>>
>>>
>>> (FWIW, I think either answer leads to some obvious problems. :-)
>>  Sure, except as soon as you exercise it in a way contrary to the  
>> ruling authorities you'll be kicked out. It's like 1984 with harps and  
>> clouds.
>
> Well, that was kind of the obvious problem with the answer yes. *Can*  
> you get kicked out?

There's a precedent.

> If so, why is Heaven any better than Earth?

It's got those harps and clouds and the fullsome sense of smugness caused  
by being there.

Okay in all seriousness if everyone thinks the same way in Heaven then  
it's possible that the only way in is to display those same traits on  
Earth. Therefore you have no free will nor free will to lose you are  
simply repeating your Earthly actions in Heaven. If you were the type of  
person to become disatisfied with that then you wouldn't have been allowed  
in. Satan/Lucifer/Adversary doesn't count as he was always in Heaven.

-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

Post a reply to this message

And lo on Sat, 26 Jan 2008 04:43:44 -0000, Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom>  
did spake, saying:

> Patrick Elliott wrote:
>> The assumption that such a place exists at all,
>
> Then the answer would be "no", not "yes". :-) If the place doesn't  
> exist, then asking whether there's something at that place would be  
> answered "no". Do the taxi drivers on the moon accept tips? No.
>
> Even taking as an assumption that heaven exists, the question raises  
> what I think are obvious problems.
>
> What if you go to (Christian) Heaven, meet Mohammed, and he convinces  
> you that Jesus isn't your Savior after all?  (OK, well, that's assuming  
> Mohammed went to heaven, which according to christians he wouldn't, but  
> just say...)
>
> 1) God kicks you out. So heaven isn't eternal after all.
>
> 2) God lets you stay. So God's just yanking your chain on Earth,  
> intentionally putting you into a situation where he can punish you for  
> something that doesn't bother him enough to kick you out once you're  
> there.
>
> 3) You can't make that choice. Then again, free will is given to humans  
> only to trap them into going to Hell anyway.

"Mock The Week" got it right. There is only one true religion when you die  
you end up in a room with representatives of all the world's religions  
lined up in a row. You go to the relgion of your chose and they hold up a  
little card with "Bluff" written on it.

-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

Post a reply to this message

"Phil Cook" <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote:
> It's got those harps and clouds and the fullsome sense of smugness caused
> by being there.
>
> Okay in all seriousness if everyone thinks the same way in Heaven then
> it's possible that the only way in is to display those same traits on
> Earth. Therefore you have no free will nor free will to lose you are
> simply repeating your Earthly actions in Heaven. If you were the type of
> person to become disatisfied with that then you wouldn't have been allowed
> in. Satan/Lucifer/Adversary doesn't count as he was always in Heaven.

Not to sound blasphemous.
But who says that there are individuals. If there might be no free will, it
could also be, that there are no individuals... (invalid logic, but doesn't
matter)
I can't imagine a lot of individuals playing all time similar or same songs with
harp. ;)
"the fullsome sense of smugness caused by being there" sounds like there might
be something, which changes the way you are. -> So no individual anymore? ;)

Regards

              bluetree

Post a reply to this message