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On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 20:20:25 -0400, Warp wrote:
> Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospam com> wrote:
>> If we all agreed on everything, life would be boring.
>
> I disagree.
Thanks for that, Warp - funny guy. ;-)
Jim
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Sherry Shaw wrote:
> Ubergeek!!!
It's official. LOL!
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St. wrote:
>> Well, as I say, this is now about the 5th time I've been told to shut up.
>
>
> From what I can see, you're mixing with the big boys there Andrew. If you
> have faith in what you can say and do with Haskell, then back it up and
> front them with it. "Stick it to 'em Cap'n Mainwaring!"
>
> Those guys probably know eachother and go back a long way, (even with
> other languages), and then along comes the new kid on the block. Think about
> it for a while. ;)
In this instance, the problem seems to be that I stepped on somebody's
favourit branch of mathematics. (I made statements that could be
construed as implying that category theory is incomprehensible and/or
pointless. What I was *actually* trying to say is that you don't need to
be an expert in category theory to use Haskell...) I also posted an
evaluation tree that contained a minor technical error (I mixed up a
left-fold and a right-fold). So I got flamed to hell.
Interestingly, after I left somebody else piped up with "you're picking
on HIM?? That's insane! He's one of the few non-PhDs who's actually
interested in the language and you have a go at him. And people wonder
why nobody uses Haskell..."
Maybe I'll resubscribe. There's some stuff I need answers to. But I'll
have to make a habit of not saying *anything* other than questions and
answers - because I'm really tired of being flamed every single damn
time I speak...
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"Orchid XP v7" <voi### [at] devnull> wrote in message
news:4714fd4c@news.povray.org...
> St. wrote:
>
>>> Well, as I say, this is now about the 5th time I've been told to shut
>>> up.
>>
>>
>> From what I can see, you're mixing with the big boys there Andrew. If
>> you have faith in what you can say and do with Haskell, then back it up
>> and front them with it. "Stick it to 'em Cap'n Mainwaring!"
>>
>> Those guys probably know eachother and go back a long way, (even with
>> other languages), and then along comes the new kid on the block. Think
>> about it for a while. ;)
>
> In this instance, the problem seems to be that I stepped on somebody's
> favourit branch of mathematics. (I made statements that could be construed
> as implying that category theory is incomprehensible and/or pointless.
> What I was *actually* trying to say is that you don't need to be an expert
> in category theory to use Haskell...) I also posted an evaluation tree
> that contained a minor technical error (I mixed up a left-fold and a
> right-fold). So I got flamed to hell.
Ok, a mistake was made - no biggy. It happens. You *are* human, aren't
you Andrew? ;)
>
> Interestingly, after I left somebody else piped up with "you're picking on
> HIM?? That's insane! He's one of the few non-PhDs who's actually
> interested in the language and you have a go at him. And people wonder why
> nobody uses Haskell..."
Well, there you go. That was nice of him/her.
>
> Maybe I'll resubscribe. There's some stuff I need answers to. But I'll
> have to make a habit of not saying *anything* other than questions and
> answers - because I'm really tired of being flamed every single damn time
> I speak...
Resubscribe with a new moniker of 'PurpleHaaaaaaze' and give 'em some
crap (code-wise) just for fun. Go frit. <eg>
Don't take what's happened to you seriously. Those guys are bored out of
their minds and you were the next best thing to having some excitement in
their lives - really. They're probably embarrased that you know what you do,
and were just looking to put you down because you're better than them. (At
least, tell yourself that 10 times a day!) :)
~Steve~
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>> In this instance, the problem seems to be that I stepped on somebody's
>> favourit branch of mathematics. (I made statements that could be construed
>> as implying that category theory is incomprehensible and/or pointless.
>> What I was *actually* trying to say is that you don't need to be an expert
>> in category theory to use Haskell...) I also posted an evaluation tree
>> that contained a minor technical error (I mixed up a left-fold and a
>> right-fold). So I got flamed to hell.
>
> Ok, a mistake was made - no biggy. It happens. You *are* human, aren't
> you Andrew? ;)
Indeed. And in fact, the discussion was not even *about* folds, so the
error was entirely incidental and didn't in any way alter the point I
was actually making, but still...
>> Interestingly, after I left somebody else piped up with "you're picking on
>> HIM?? That's insane! He's one of the few non-PhDs who's actually
>> interested in the language and you have a go at him. And people wonder why
>> nobody uses Haskell..."
>
> Well, there you go. That was nice of him/her.
Yeah. And unprovoked... (He said that me and some other guy where the
people who's opinions he most respected. Interesting...)
> Resubscribe with a new moniker of 'PurpleHaaaaaaze' and give 'em some
> crap (code-wise) just for fun. Go frit. <eg>
lolz!
> Don't take what's happened to you seriously. Those guys are bored out of
> their minds and you were the next best thing to having some excitement in
> their lives - really. They're probably embarrased that you know what you do,
> and were just looking to put you down because you're better than them. (At
> least, tell yourself that 10 times a day!) :)
Who are you trying to kid? I'm the only guy on the list without a PhD in
some highly advanced disciplin. :-P
I guess it's just that I sit here all alone all day with nobody to talk
to, and even on *this* forum I can't discuss Haskell (because nobody
knows WTF I'm talking about nor actually gives a damn anyway). There's a
lot of very intelligent people on the Haskell mailing list, but clearly
people like me aren't welcome. And that really quite upsets me...
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"Orchid XP v7" <voi### [at] devnull> wrote in message
news:47151d35$1@news.povray.org...
>>> In this instance, the problem seems to be that I stepped on somebody's
>>> favourit branch of mathematics. (I made statements that could be
>>> construed as implying that category theory is incomprehensible and/or
>>> pointless. What I was *actually* trying to say is that you don't need to
>>> be an expert in category theory to use Haskell...) I also posted an
>>> evaluation tree that contained a minor technical error (I mixed up a
>>> left-fold and a right-fold). So I got flamed to hell.
>>
>> Ok, a mistake was made - no biggy. It happens. You *are* human,
>> aren't you Andrew? ;)
>
> Indeed. And in fact, the discussion was not even *about* folds, so the
> error was entirely incidental and didn't in any way alter the point I was
> actually making, but still...
Hey, yeah, well... But did you correct the mistake afterwards on the
list and explain?
>
>>> Interestingly, after I left somebody else piped up with "you're picking
>>> on HIM?? That's insane! He's one of the few non-PhDs who's actually
>>> interested in the language and you have a go at him. And people wonder
>>> why nobody uses Haskell..."
>>
>> Well, there you go. That was nice of him/her.
>
> Yeah. And unprovoked... (He said that me and some other guy where the
> people who's opinions he most respected. Interesting...)
Maybe he's the same as you, and learnt Haskell the hard way as you did.
>
>> Resubscribe with a new moniker of 'PurpleHaaaaaaze' and give 'em some
>> crap (code-wise) just for fun. Go frit. <eg>
>
> lolz!
:)
>
>> Don't take what's happened to you seriously. Those guys are bored out
>> of their minds and you were the next best thing to having some excitement
>> in their lives - really. They're probably embarrased that you know what
>> you do, and were just looking to put you down because you're better than
>> them. (At least, tell yourself that 10 times a day!) :)
>
> Who are you trying to kid? I'm the only guy on the list without a PhD in
> some highly advanced disciplin. :-P
Stuff the PhD's. Really, ask them what they've actually DONE with their
PhD's and you won't get an answer unless someone is honest and says: "I'm
raking in a fortune and sitting on my arse doing... Nothing". Fair play to
them, I told you they were bored... ;)
>
> I guess it's just that I sit here all alone all day with nobody to talk
> to, and even on *this* forum I can't discuss Haskell (because nobody knows
> WTF I'm talking about nor actually gives a damn anyway). There's a lot of
> very intelligent people on the Haskell mailing list, but clearly people
> like me aren't welcome. And that really quite upsets me...
Don't be silly, I'm interested. I'd love to learn some kind of language,
and from all of your descriptions and posts about Haskell, it would probably
be my first choice, (apart from maybe LUA because I've already learnt a
'small' part of that from editing my own level with Sandbox1<Farcry Game
Editor>).
Anyway, when the HELL are you going to do *something* with *your* life
Andrew! Are you going to be here in 2010 still moaning, or are you going to
take the bull by the horns and actually DO something that we can be proud of
at that time? Jeez mate, I can bet that a LOT of us here in these groups
have gone through getting our lives sorted out, but the weird thing is, I
bet none of us were *told* to do it - we just DID it because we had to.
It's called... Life. (Which I feel you know absolutely nothing about).
~Steve~
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St. wrote:
>
>
> Stuff the PhD's. Really, ask them what they've actually DONE with their
> PhD's and you won't get an answer unless someone is honest and says: "I'm
> raking in a fortune and sitting on my arse doing... Nothing". Fair play to
> them, I told you they were bored... ;)
>
Hmm, is that your general opinion on PhD's or just these ones?
Just asking ;)
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"andrel" <a_l### [at] hotmailcom> wrote in message
news:471### [at] hotmailcom...
> St. wrote:
>>
>>
>> Stuff the PhD's. Really, ask them what they've actually DONE with their
>> PhD's and you won't get an answer unless someone is honest and says: "I'm
>> raking in a fortune and sitting on my arse doing... Nothing". Fair play
>> to them, I told you they were bored... ;)
>>
> Hmm, is that your general opinion on PhD's or just these ones?
> Just asking ;)
LOL! No, not my general opinion, and certainly not you guys, I have much
respect for you guys around here. :) No, it's just them, I think they're
bored and Andrew was easy prey. But, fairplay to Andrew, I reckon he could
match them in his knowledge if he put his mind to it. (That's probably what
naffed them off in the first place). :)
~Steve~
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>> Don't take what's happened to you seriously. Those guys are bored out
>> of their minds and you were the next best thing to having some excitement
>> in their lives - really. They're probably embarrased that you know what
>> you do, and were just looking to put you down because you're better than
>> them. (At least, tell yourself that 10 times a day!) :)
>
> Who are you trying to kid? I'm the only guy on the list without a PhD in
> some highly advanced disciplin. :-P
So? It's unlikely they all did their PhDs about Haskell, as Steve said they
are probably just really annoyed that someone without a PhD could know so
much about a language like Haskell. They are just looking for any way to
show you up so that everyone else remembers they are "better" than you. You
could always try to show them up by throwing in a few "in real life" or
"outside academia" type answers ;-)
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Orchid XP v7 wrote:
> Hi guys. I'm back.
>
> For a while I've been hanging around the Haskell mailing list. But I've
> just been flamed yet again (and not by the same person either), so
> clearly I'm just not wanted there. :-(
>
> But hey, you guys still love me, right?
>
This is a long one!
Andrew,
I haven't followed the entire thread here so I don't know everything
that's been said.
I did take the time just now to find the Haskell list that this all
happened on. I even found the thread. I didn't read all of the
messages (Haskell is not my cup of tea), but I think I read enough to
put in my 2 shillings :-)
shilling 1
New kid on the block syndrome
We recently hired a new person. Within 3 months he was telling me how
I should do my job. I've been doing my job for 8 years! I have worked
very hard to figure out the things that I have put in place. Now much
of that is actually being challenged. But worse, the challenge is from
someone arrogant enough to think he knows how it should be done. To
this person this makes sense and is what should be done. To me I see a
different point - I've been there before and decided that it didn't make
sense and should NOT be done. The biggest problem is that there is
nothing in place to corral the new person's energy and utilize it in a
good way. The hardest thing is that the person feels that they are
doing the right thing - even if it is completely wrong - and come across
very arrogant and even condescending at times. VERY FRUSTRATING
which brings me to
shilling 2
Old geezer on the stick syndrome
How one responds to the new kid on the block is very defining of their
character.
Some sit up on a stick very high. They use their stick to beat down
those who oppose their thought. They are right, you are wrong, and you
better get in line. A lot of the time they rely on authority to get
things done because it is easiest.
I admire those who have the stick, yet use it gently to nurture those
who may not know as much. They tend to reply on respect to get things
done, and they earn the respect.
I think you are viewed as relatively new in the Haskell group. The Mr
PhDs (it seems there are a couple) see you as a nuisance. They have all
of the answers and when you post something they disagree with, they are
there to set you straight. They are sitting mighty high with their
sticks up their.... I better keep it clean - this message I mean :-o.
Not a lot of people are like this, but it only takes one to ruin the fun.
In the same token it seems that the way you are positing information is
rubbing more than one person wrong. Are you 100% sure that your answers
are correct??? Or is it a gut feeling that is likely correct. If it is
the latter and you come across as the former, you are just making sticks
longer.
This kind of stuff is all over the place. I've experienced it myself -
from both sides of the picture. I've been the new kid that know what
needs done and forces others to eat it. I've also been the old geezer
who doesn't know how to handle the new kid who knows what needs done.
What I am scared of is becoming one of the old geezers - a very bad one.
And I don't want to be the BAD kid on the block.
I work very hard to try to 'fluff' my input so that it is seen more as
an opinion, or just another way of doing things, but not THE way. Of
course there are times when I believe very strongly about something.
But having that stance should be user sparingly as it leads to being the
BAD kid on the block.
I also work very hard in not slamming the new kid on the block (the new
guy we hired). I find it most challenging when he is being very
forceful in what he thinks right and I know from experience or from a
different perspective that he is not. My natural tendency is to use
authority to tell him to shut up - I try VERY hard to not go this route.
But if something hits wrong, it might come out before I can build a
good response.
I really try to help the person see that their point is not fact as they
make it, but more opinion and is not necessarily the only method. Then
I try to get the person to see some different view points that may
contradict their view. If they actually have a good idea, I try to
recognize it and give credit where credit is due.
I find all of this VERY hard to do, and I wish I didn't have to deal wit
it. It is not my natural tendency - I am my way is the right way type.
So I by default am a very BAD new kid on the block, but also a very
BAD geezer with a stick shoved....
So, the challenge in life is to use experiences like you just hit to
become a better person. To see behavior that you don't want to become
and take steps to make sure it does not happen.
IMHO, maybe you could flip this whole thing on it's head.
Go back to the Haskell group and write a public message specifically to
Mr. jerzy & co (in the subject)..... and apologize if you've offended
him, state that you are trying to learn life (not just Haskell) and are
working on it. Just like him, you are working hard to learn Haskell and
help others learn it. Ask for him to help you when you mis-speak. And
tell him that unless he has tried to help that he has NO right to flame
you like he has done in the past.
Then if you get flamed again, don't try to defend you position to a
flame, it's useless. Just have a canned response - a good one can
discredit their flame. If you have a text doc with it, then you can
just simply copy and paste. State something like:
OK Mr high and mighty - whatever you say
Thanks for trying to help others learn something by using a flame.
I'm trying to give back to this group because I have gotten so much out
of it.
If I am wrong is what I said, then help correct it so that we can all
know better.
Respond the same every time. Pretty soon your response is so expected
that the flame has no effect and other ignore it. This has a good
potential for flames to actually build others' respect for you.
This way you are able to accomplish some things
You can learn how to approach things a bit *milder* and communicating
better.
You can possibly help someone else do the same.
You can then get to learning Haskell.
IMHO, learning life is much more important, but not as fun, as learning
Haskell
or
Your message to him starts a flame war so hot that it melts the group -
but I think others would but on their fire extinguishers before that
happens.
In my opinion (see, I'm working on this presentation stuff) the problem
is not only the geezer - it is also the new kid on the block. Hopefully
you can take at least some good from this and move onward and upward.
LAter... Tom
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