Orchid XP v7 wrote:
> Hi guys. I'm back.
> 
> For a while I've been hanging around the Haskell mailing list. But I've 
> just been flamed yet again (and not by the same person either), so 
> clearly I'm just not wanted there. :-(
> 
> But hey, you guys still love me, right?
> 


This is a long one!



Andrew,
	I haven't followed the entire thread here so I don't know everything 
that's been said.
	I did take the time just now to find the Haskell list that this all 
happened on.  I even found the thread.  I didn't read all of the 
messages (Haskell is not my cup of tea), but I think I read enough to 
put in my 2 shillings :-)




shilling 1
New kid on the block syndrome
	We recently hired a new person.  Within 3 months he was telling me how 
I should do my job.  I've been doing my job for 8 years!  I have worked 
very hard to figure out the things that I have put in place.  Now much 
of that is actually being challenged.  But worse, the challenge is from 
someone arrogant enough to think he knows how it should be done.  To 
this person this makes sense and is what should be done.  To me I see a 
different point - I've been there before and decided that it didn't make 
sense and should NOT be done.  The biggest problem is that there is 
nothing in place to corral the new person's energy and utilize it in a 
good way.  The hardest thing is that the person feels that they are 
doing the right thing - even if it is completely wrong - and come across 
very arrogant and even condescending at times.  VERY FRUSTRATING

which brings me to

shilling 2
Old geezer on the stick syndrome
	How one responds to the new kid on the block is very defining of their 
character.
	Some sit up on a stick very high.  They use their stick to beat down 
those who oppose their thought.  They are right, you are wrong, and you 
better get in line.  A lot of the time they rely on authority to get 
things done because it is easiest.
	I admire those who have the stick, yet use it gently to nurture those 
who may not know as much.  They tend to reply on respect to get things 
done, and they earn the respect.




I think you are viewed as relatively new in the Haskell group.  The Mr 
PhDs (it seems there are a couple) see you as a nuisance.  They have all 
of the answers and when you post something they disagree with, they are 
there to set you straight.  They are sitting mighty high with their 
sticks up their....  I better keep it clean - this message I mean :-o. 
Not a lot of people are like this, but it only takes one to ruin the fun.

In the same token it seems that the way you are positing information is 
rubbing more than one person wrong.  Are you 100% sure that your answers 
are correct???  Or is it a gut feeling that is likely correct.  If it is 
the latter and you come across as the former, you are just making sticks 
longer.




This kind of stuff is all over the place.  I've experienced it myself - 
from both sides of the picture.  I've been the new kid that know what 
needs done and forces others to eat it.  I've also been the old geezer 
who doesn't know how to handle the new kid who knows what needs done.

What I am scared of is becoming one of the old geezers - a very bad one.
And I don't want to be the BAD kid on the block.

I work very hard to try to 'fluff' my input so that it is seen more as 
an opinion, or just another way of doing things, but not THE way.  Of 
course there are times when I believe very strongly about something. 
But having that stance should be user sparingly as it leads to being the 
BAD kid on the block.

I also work very hard in not slamming the new kid on the block (the new 
guy we hired).  I find it most challenging when he is being very 
forceful in what he thinks right and I know from experience or from a 
different perspective that he is not.  My natural tendency is to use 
authority to tell him to shut up - I try VERY hard to not go this route. 
  But if something hits wrong, it might come out before I can build a 
good response.
I really try to help the person see that their point is not fact as they 
make it, but more opinion and is not necessarily the only method.  Then 
I try to get the person to see some different view points that may 
contradict their view.  If they actually have a good idea, I try to 
recognize it and give credit where credit is due.




I find all of this VERY hard to do, and I wish I didn't have to deal wit 
it.  It is not my natural tendency - I am my way is the right way type. 
  So I by default am a very BAD new kid on the block, but also a very 
BAD geezer with a stick shoved....



So, the challenge in life is to use experiences like you just hit to 
become a better person.  To see behavior that you don't want to become 
and take steps to make sure it does not happen.



IMHO, maybe you could flip this whole thing on it's head.
Go back to the Haskell group and write a public message specifically to 
Mr. jerzy & co (in the subject).....  and apologize if you've offended 
him, state that you are trying to learn life (not just Haskell) and are 
working on it.  Just like him, you are working hard to learn Haskell and 
help others learn it.  Ask for him to help you when you mis-speak.  And 
tell him that unless he has tried to help that he has NO right to flame 
you like he has done in the past.
	Then if you get flamed again, don't try to defend you position to a 
flame, it's useless.  Just have a canned response - a good one can 
discredit their flame.  If you have a text doc with it, then you can 
just simply copy and paste.  State something like:

OK Mr high and mighty - whatever you say
Thanks for trying to help others learn something by using a flame.
I'm trying to give back to this group because I have gotten so much out 
of it.
If I am wrong is what I said, then help correct it so that we can all 
know better.

Respond the same every time.  Pretty soon your response is so expected 
that the flame has no effect and other ignore it.  This has a good 
potential for flames to actually build others' respect for you.


This way you are able to accomplish some things
You can learn how to approach things a bit *milder* and communicating 
better.
You can possibly help someone else do the same.
You can then get to learning Haskell.
IMHO, learning life is much more important, but not as fun, as learning 
Haskell

or

Your message to him starts a flame war so hot that it melts the group - 
but I think others would but on their fire extinguishers before that 
happens.



In my opinion (see, I'm working on this presentation stuff) the problem 
is not only the geezer - it is also the new kid on the block.  Hopefully 
you can take at least some good from this and move onward and upward.



LAter... Tom

Post a reply to this message