POV-Ray : Newsgroups : povray.general : povray vs uberpov am3 Server Time: 24 Oct 2020 21:23:44 GMT
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From: Kenneth
Subject: Re: povray vs uberpov am3
Date: 17 Sep 2020 19:10:01
Message: <web.5f63b34aaa461a8cd98418910@news.povray.org>
Alain Martel <kua### [at] videotronca> wrote:

>
> The «plugin» version need to reside in a sub-folder of another
> installation. It piggy back on another installed version.

Yes, that is what I am currently doing-- the UberPOV v1.37 'plug-in' is
piggybacking on my v3.7.0 installation, as per Clikpa's old instructions.
UberPOV is actually a v3.8.0.alpha+xxx (in Windows, anyway); what is strange is
that the "+ac0.9" command is not recognizied there, whereas it *is* recognized
in the other 3.8.0xx versions I have.

Yet it DOES work for Ton in *his* UberPOV version.

>
> You may want to install the [UberPOV] standalone version, then, replace the
> executable with the latest version.

That's an interesting idea; I guess I could try that as a last resort.


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From: Ton
Subject: Re: povray vs uberpov am3
Date: 17 Sep 2020 22:50:00
Message: <web.5f63e7c6aa461a8c6c5bf0280@news.povray.org>
"Kenneth" <kdw### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> Alain Martel <kua### [at] videotronca> wrote:
>
> >
> > The «plugin» version need to reside in a sub-folder of another
> > installation. It piggy back on another installed version.
>
> Yes, that is what I am currently doing-- the UberPOV v1.37 'plug-in' is
> piggybacking on my v3.7.0 installation, as per Clikpa's old instructions.
> UberPOV is actually a v3.8.0.alpha+xxx (in Windows, anyway); what is strange is
> that the "+ac0.9" command is not recognizied there, whereas it *is* recognized
> in the other 3.8.0xx versions I have.
>
> Yet it DOES work for Ton in *his* UberPOV version.
>
> >
> > You may want to install the [UberPOV] standalone version, then, replace the
> > executable with the latest version.
>
> That's an interesting idea; I guess I could try that as a last resort.

My version of uberpov is from https://github.com/UberPOV/UberPOV, the last
version, dated 10 February 2015.
My version of povray 3.8 is from https://github.com/POV-Ray/povray/tags, the
last version, v3.8.0-x.10064738, dated 19 February 2019.
Povray 3.7 doesn't have the stochastic rendering mode am3, that's probably why
your plugin on version 3.7.0 doesn't work, but I don't have any experience with
the piggy back.
BTW Uberpov out of the box doesn't compile right now, because the
boost-libraries have changed. I wouldn't mind checking my modified files in into
Uberpov, but I need permission to do that, and I don't want to create another
fork of povray. It's complicated and confusing with all those forks as it is.

Cheers
Ton.


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From: William F Pokorny
Subject: Re: povray vs uberpov am3
Date: 18 Sep 2020 10:36:38
Message: <5f648db6$1@news.povray.org>
On 9/17/20 6:48 PM, Ton wrote:
...
> My version of uberpov is from https://github.com/UberPOV/UberPOV, the last
> version, dated 10 February 2015.

FWIW. That version will be missing the following commit in the uber branch:

commit 0d7ee74f74ec87c5fc93a4d17843491fc193a525
Author: Christoph Lipka <c-l### [at] usersnoreplygithubcom>
Date:   Thu Sep 1 21:54:35 2016 +0200

     Fixed bug in anti-aliasing mode 3.

     This commit compensates for changes in official POV-Ray that caused 
the image to be shifted by half a pixel in anti-aliasing mode 3.

---
This doesn't explain the performance difference as I compiled and ran:

commit 0333f9b5a8461aa7adb7fb8adea3b0eb1780caac (HEAD -> UberPOVdev, 
UberPOV/develop)
Author: Christoph Lipka <c-l### [at] usersnoreplygithubcom>
Date:   Mon Nov 21 03:42:43 2016 +0100

which includes the commit/fix above. I see the performance difference 
you see with your flag settings. One I believe is due the v3.8 
implementation doing more work (a better job) at any identical set of 
flags.

Why? I don't know. Does it much matter? In the end we're after a result.

If I play a while running Uberpov aiming to match consumed cpu time(1), 
when I get to 16.97s for v3.8 and 16.2 seconds for Uberpov, the images 
are not identical - but the results are now quite similar.

To get these nearly matching image results and times I used:

povray +d +p +q9 +am3 +a0.1 +ac0.9 +r6 AntiAliasingTest.pov
uberpov +d +p +q9 +am3 +a0.035 +ac0.9 +r6 AntiAliasingTest.pov

I have a vague memory something with flag handling was different uberpov 
to v3.8 as stated 'somewhere' by Christoph. I cannot clearly remember or 
find it.

A wild guess would be something like one implementation getting the 
internal anit-alias gamma handling right and other not, but - wild guess.

(1) - If the samples/pixel stats were working we could align these 
counts of cpu time consumed.

I don't think we have a fat rabbit to chase here.

Of course run time improvements with am3 would be welcome. I have on my 
list to do some profiling with parametrics. Might take a side look at 
am3 too while I've got those compiles about. I've got the color shift 
issue to replicate and run down someday too. Hmm, wonder if I can 
trigger it with your simpler test cast Ton.

Bill P.


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From: William F Pokorny
Subject: Re: povray vs uberpov am3
Date: 18 Sep 2020 11:22:17
Message: <5f649869$1@news.povray.org>
On 9/18/20 6:36 AM, William F Pokorny wrote:
...
> 
> I don't think we have a fat rabbit to chase here.
> 
> Of course run time improvements with am3 would be welcome. I have on my 
> list to do some profiling with parametrics. Might take a side look at 
> am3 too while I've got those compiles about. I've got the color shift 
> issue to replicate and run down someday too. Hmm, wonder if I can 
> trigger it with your simpler test cast Ton.
> 

We can indeed! All one needs do is change:

background { color srgb <0, 0, 0> }

to:

#declare Acajou = srgb <0.29804,0.18431,0.15294>;
background { color Acajou }

and the cpu time jumps.

16.918 -> 3443.029 ---> 20251.28%

Plus the results are to my eye not as good.

Does uberpov has the same behavior:

16.172 -> 3512.926 ---> 21622.27%

A fat rabbit.

Bill P.


Bill P.


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From: Kenneth
Subject: Re: povray vs uberpov am3
Date: 18 Sep 2020 12:00:01
Message: <web.5f64a081aa461a8cd98418910@news.povray.org>
William F Pokorny <ano### [at] anonymousorg> wrote:
> >
> > Hmm, wonder if I can
> > trigger it with your simpler test cast Ton.
> >
>
> We can indeed! All one needs do is change:
>
> background { color srgb <0, 0, 0> }
>
> to:
>
> #declare Acajou = srgb <0.29804,0.18431,0.15294>;
> background { color Acajou }
>
> and the cpu time jumps.
>
> 16.918 -> 3443.029 ---> 20251.28%
>
> Plus the results are to my eye not as good.
>
> Does uberpov has the same behavior:
>
> 16.172 -> 3512.926 ---> 21622.27%
>

WOW! That's incredible. Excellent detective work, Bill.


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From: Kenneth
Subject: Re: povray vs uberpov am3
Date: 18 Sep 2020 14:50:01
Message: <web.5f64c87aaa461a8cd98418910@news.povray.org>
"Ton" <ton### [at] gmailcom> wrote:

> My version of uberpov is from https://github.com/UberPOV/UberPOV, the last
> version, dated 10 February 2015.

OK. I downloaded the Windows 64-bit version of this-- I *think* it's the correct
'stand-alone' version-- dated one day earlier on the Github page: UberPOV
v1.37.1.0.beta10

> Povray 3.7 doesn't have the stochastic rendering mode am3, that's probably why
> your plugin on version 3.7.0 doesn't work...

Apparently you're correct; this earlier(!) version of UberPOV DOES recognize the
"+ac0.9" command. That seems strange to me; I would have thought that the
(later) piggyback version for 3.7.0 would also have that ability already
built-in to its binary, thus 'overriding' 3.7.0's limitation. Anyway, it does
work. Thanks.

[William wrote...}
> Hmm, wonder if I can trigger it with your simpler test cast Ton.
>
> We can indeed! All one needs do is change:
> background { color srgb <0, 0, 0> }
> to:
> #declare Acajou = srgb <0.29804,0.18431,0.15294>;
>background { color Acajou }
> and the cpu time jumps...
[snip]

In the Windows version of UberPOV beta 10 (the version I downloaded, as above),
the render times for Ton's scene are identical, with or without this
background/color change-- a quick 4 seconds at 800X600. But the visual results
indicate that AA is not working at all, or very minimally. And, as you mentioned
earlier, the render statistics say:

Antialiasing...on (Method 3, Threshold 0.100, Depth 6, Jitter 1.00, Gamma 2.50)

samples: 0   Smpls/Pxl: 0.00

-----------
[off-topic]
This UberPOV beta 10 'stand-alone'(?) installation was an interesting
experience. Unpacking it in 7-zip, it unzips as a 'application'. I thought this
would be an 'installer'-- but no, clicking on it launches UberPOV itself...with
scenes present that I had already opened in some other version of POV-ray. It
makes me wonder what assets this version is automatically using; maybe from
within my 3.7.0 folder(s)?

Another odd thing:
Running Ton's test scene the first time in this version, there was a fatal
error... in his camera declaration, of all places!

camera
{
   location <25, 8, 0>
   right <image_width / image_height, 0, 0>
   look_at <12, 0, 0>
}

The fatal error was at the 2nd line-- ""Expected numneric expression,  /  found
instead". Huh?!

So I changed that line to the more standard syntax,
     right x*image_width/image_height

..... but that triggered a *different* fatal error...
"No matching } in 'camera', * found instead". Huh?!

I finally got it to work by using
     right <1.3333,0,0>

Very strange...especially since my own more complex scenes run perfectly OK with
the 'problem' syntax. (Although, in my scenes, I never put the camera
declaration as the last item. Maybe that's the culprit?)

It's a good thing that I have a sense of humor; otherwise, these crazy errors
would drive me insane ;-)


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From: Ash Holsenback
Subject: Re: povray vs uberpov am3
Date: 18 Sep 2020 14:57:36
Message: <5f64cae0$1@news.povray.org>
On 9/18/20 7:22 AM, William F Pokorny wrote:
> On 9/18/20 6:36 AM, William F Pokorny wrote:
> ...
>>
>> I don't think we have a fat rabbit to chase here.
>>
>> Of course run time improvements with am3 would be welcome. I have on 
>> my list to do some profiling with parametrics. Might take a side look 
>> at am3 too while I've got those compiles about. I've got the color 
>> shift issue to replicate and run down someday too. Hmm, wonder if I 
>> can trigger it with your simpler test cast Ton.
>>
> 
> We can indeed! All one needs do is change:
> 
> background { color srgb <0, 0, 0> }
> 
> to:
> 
> #declare Acajou = srgb <0.29804,0.18431,0.15294>;
> background { color Acajou }
> 
> and the cpu time jumps.
> 
> 16.918 -> 3443.029 ---> 20251.28%
> 
> Plus the results are to my eye not as good.
> 
> Does uberpov has the same behavior:
> 
> 16.172 -> 3512.926 ---> 21622.27%
> 
> A fat rabbit.
> 
> Bill P.

tried changing my am3 test file like above ... cannot duplicate issue


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From: Ash Holsenback
Subject: Re: povray vs uberpov am3
Date: 18 Sep 2020 15:11:35
Message: <5f64ce27$1@news.povray.org>
On 9/18/20 10:47 AM, Kenneth wrote:
> "Ton" <ton### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> 
>> My version of uberpov is from https://github.com/UberPOV/UberPOV, the last
>> version, dated 10 February 2015.
> 
> OK. I downloaded the Windows 64-bit version of this-- I *think* it's the correct
> 'stand-alone' version-- dated one day earlier on the Github page: UberPOV
> v1.37.1.0.beta10
> 
>> Povray 3.7 doesn't have the stochastic rendering mode am3, that's probably why
>> your plugin on version 3.7.0 doesn't work...
> 
> Apparently you're correct; this earlier(!) version of UberPOV DOES recognize the
> "+ac0.9" command. That seems strange to me; I would have thought that the
> (later) piggyback version for 3.7.0 would also have that ability already
> built-in to its binary, thus 'overriding' 3.7.0's limitation. Anyway, it does
> work. Thanks.
> 
> [William wrote...}
>> Hmm, wonder if I can trigger it with your simpler test cast Ton.
>>
>> We can indeed! All one needs do is change:
>> background { color srgb <0, 0, 0> }
>> to:
>> #declare Acajou = srgb <0.29804,0.18431,0.15294>;
>> background { color Acajou }
>> and the cpu time jumps...
> [snip]
> 
> In the Windows version of UberPOV beta 10 (the version I downloaded, as above),
> the render times for Ton's scene are identical, with or without this
> background/color change-- a quick 4 seconds at 800X600. But the visual results
> indicate that AA is not working at all, or very minimally. And, as you mentioned
> earlier, the render statistics say:
> 
> Antialiasing...on (Method 3, Threshold 0.100, Depth 6, Jitter 1.00, Gamma 2.50)
> 
> samples: 0   Smpls/Pxl: 0.00
> 
> -----------
> [off-topic]
> This UberPOV beta 10 'stand-alone'(?) installation was an interesting
> experience. Unpacking it in 7-zip, it unzips as a 'application'. I thought this
> would be an 'installer'-- but no, clicking on it launches UberPOV itself...with
> scenes present that I had already opened in some other version of POV-ray. It
> makes me wonder what assets this version is automatically using; maybe from
> within my 3.7.0 folder(s)?
> 
> Another odd thing:
> Running Ton's test scene the first time in this version, there was a fatal
> error... in his camera declaration, of all places!
> 
> camera
> {
>     location <25, 8, 0>
>     right <image_width / image_height, 0, 0>
>     look_at <12, 0, 0>
> }
> 
> The fatal error was at the 2nd line-- ""Expected numneric expression,  /  found
> instead". Huh?!
> 
> So I changed that line to the more standard syntax,
>       right x*image_width/image_height
> 
> ..... but that triggered a *different* fatal error...
> "No matching } in 'camera', * found instead". Huh?!
> 
> I finally got it to work by using
>       right <1.3333,0,0>
> 
> Very strange...especially since my own more complex scenes run perfectly OK with
> the 'problem' syntax. (Although, in my scenes, I never put the camera
> declaration as the last item. Maybe that's the culprit?)
> 
> It's a good thing that I have a sense of humor; otherwise, these crazy errors
> would drive me insane ;-)

i've not followed uber for a bit now ... but in version povray 
3.8.0-alpha.10064268 you don't even have to set the right vector 
anymore: http://wiki.povray.org/content/Reference:Camera#Aspect_Ratio 
... so i'm not sure where the uber you're using is at ... just a thought.


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From: Kenneth
Subject: Re: povray vs uberpov am3
Date: 18 Sep 2020 18:25:00
Message: <web.5f64fadcaa461a8cd98418910@news.povray.org>
Ash Holsenback <no### [at] spamcom> wrote:

>
> i've not followed uber for a bit now ... but in version povray
> 3.8.0-alpha.10064268 you don't even have to set the right vector
> anymore: http://wiki.povray.org/content/Reference:Camera#Aspect_Ratio

Thanks; I didn't know about that change.

> ... so i'm not sure where the uber you're using is at ...

All of the versions that I could find are here:

https://github.com/UberPOV/UberPOV/releases


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From: jr
Subject: Re: povray vs uberpov am3
Date: 18 Sep 2020 20:15:01
Message: <web.5f651473aa461a8c4d00143e0@news.povray.org>
hi,

Ash Holsenback <no### [at] spamcom> wrote:
> On 9/18/20 7:22 AM, William F Pokorny wrote:
> > On 9/18/20 6:36 AM, William F Pokorny wrote:
> > ...
> >>
> >> I don't think we have a fat rabbit to chase here.
> >>
> >> Of course run time improvements with am3 would be welcome. I have on
> >> my list to do some profiling with parametrics. Might take a side look
> >> at am3 too while I've got those compiles about. I've got the color
> >> shift issue to replicate and run down someday too. Hmm, wonder if I
> >> can trigger it with your simpler test cast Ton.
> >>
> >
> > We can indeed! All one needs do is change:
> >
> > background { color srgb <0, 0, 0> }
> >
> > to:
> >
> > #declare Acajou = srgb <0.29804,0.18431,0.15294>;
> > background { color Acajou }
> >
> > and the cpu time jumps.
> >
> > 16.918 -> 3443.029 ---> 20251.28%
> >
> > Plus the results are to my eye not as good.
> >
> > Does uberpov has the same behavior:
> >
> > 16.172 -> 3512.926 ---> 21622.27%
> >
> > A fat rabbit.
> >
> > Bill P.
>
> tried changing my am3 test file like above ... cannot duplicate issue

fwiw, same here, also alpha.10064268.  in fact the coloured bg version is
faster,
edited transcript:

Script started on Fri 18 Sep 2020 20:58:43 BST

jr@crow:1:tmp$ c### [at] ngtonpov
#version 3.8;

global_settings {
    assumed_gamma 1
    noise_generator 2
}

#ifndef (global.N)
  #declare N = 0;
#end

#if (N)
background {color srgb <.29804,.18431,.15294>}
#else
background {color srgb 0}
#end

union {
    #for (I, -25, 25, 1)
        cylinder {
            <-20, 0, 0>, <20, 0, I>, 0.01
        }
    #end
    pigment {
        color srgb<1, 1, 1>
    }
}

light_source {
    <25, 8, 0>, rgb<1, 1, 1>
}

camera {
    location <25, 8, 0>
    right <image_width / image_height, 0, 0>
    look_at <12, 0, 0>
}

jr@crow:2:tmp$ pov38 ngton.pov +d +p +q9 +am3 +a0.1 +ac0.9 +r6
Persistence of Vision(tm) Ray Tracer Version 3.8.0-alpha.10064268.unofficial
 (g++ 4.8.2 @ x86_64-slackware-linux-gnu)
 ...
Support libraries used by POV-Ray:
  ZLib 1.2.8, Copyright 1995-2012 Jean-loup Gailly and Mark Adler
  LibPNG 1.4.20, Copyright 1998-2012 Glenn Randers-Pehrson
  LibJPEG 8, Copyright 1991-2016 Thomas G. Lane, Guido Vollbeding
  LibTIFF 3.9.7, Copyright 1988-1997 Sam Leffler, 1991-1997 SGI
  Boost 1.54, http://www.boost.org/
  OpenEXR 1.7.1 and IlmBase 1.0.3, Copyright (c) 2002-2011 Industrial Light &
 Magic.

Dynamic optimizations:
  CPU detected: Intel,SSE2,AVX
  Noise generator: avx-intel (hand-optimized by Intel)

Parser Options
  Input file: ngton.pov
  Remove bounds........On
  Split unions.........Off
  Library paths:
    /home/jr/.local/povray/include
    /usr/local/share/povray-3.8/extra
    /usr/local/share/povray-3.8/include
    /usr/share/fonts/local
  Clock value:    0.000  (Animation off)
Image Output Options
  Image resolution.....960 by 720 (rows 1 to 720, columns 1 to 960).
  Output file..........ngton.png, 24 bpp PNG
  Dithering............Off
  Graphic display......On  (gamma: sRGB transfer function)
  Mosaic preview.......Off
  Continued trace......Off
Information Output Options
  All Streams to console..........On
  Debug Stream to console.........On
  Fatal Stream to console.........On
  Render Stream to console........On
  Statistics Stream to console....On
  Warning Stream to console.......On
==== [Parsing...] ==========================================================
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Parser Statistics
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finite Objects:           51
Infinite Objects:          0
Light Sources:             1
Total:                    52
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Parser Time
  Parse Time:       0 hours  0 minutes  0 seconds (0.001 seconds)
              using 1 thread(s) with 0.000 CPU-seconds total
  Bounding Time:    0 hours  0 minutes  0 seconds (0.000 seconds)
              using 1 thread(s) with 0.000 CPU-seconds total
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Render Options
  Quality:  9
  Bounding boxes.......On   Bounding threshold: 3
  Antialiasing.........On  (Method 3, Threshold 0.100, Depth 6, Jitter 1.00,
 Gamma 2.50)
==== [Rendering... Press p to pause, q to quit] ============================
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Render Statistics
Image Resolution 960 x 720
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pixels:           691200   Samples:               0   Smpls/Pxl: 0.00
Rays:            5249224   Saved:                 0   Max Level: 1/5
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ray->Shape Intersection          Tests       Succeeded  Percentage
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cone/Cylinder                123247827         1250084      1.01
Bounding Box                 187640060       147701275     78.72
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shadow Ray Tests:           1226634   Succeeded:                     0
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Render Time:
  Photon Time:      No photons
  Radiosity Time:   No radiosity
  Trace Time:       0 hours  0 minutes 11 seconds (11.444 seconds)
              using 2 thread(s) with 22.876 CPU-seconds total
==== [Paused... Press p to resume] =========================================
Press p, q, enter or click the display to continue...

POV-Ray finished


jr@crow:3:tmp$ pov38 ngton.pov +d +p +q9 +am3 +a0.1 +ac0.9 +r6 declare=N=1
Persistence of Vision(tm) Ray Tracer Version 3.8.0-alpha.10064268.unofficial
 (g++ 4.8.2 @ x86_64-slackware-linux-gnu)
 ...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Render Statistics
Image Resolution 960 x 720
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pixels:           691200   Samples:               0   Smpls/Pxl: 0.00
Rays:            2283041   Saved:                 0   Max Level: 1/5
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ray->Shape Intersection          Tests       Succeeded  Percentage
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cone/Cylinder                 51037867          472363      0.93
Bounding Box                  77941671        61111153     78.41
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shadow Ray Tests:            463586   Succeeded:                     0
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Render Time:
  Photon Time:      No photons
  Radiosity Time:   No radiosity
  Trace Time:       0 hours  0 minutes  5 seconds (5.006 seconds)
              using 2 thread(s) with 9.995 CPU-seconds total
==== [Paused... Press p to resume] =========================================
Press p, q, enter or click the display to continue...

POV-Ray finished


'pov38' is a BASH alias for 'nice -n 19 povray'.


regards, jr.


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