Christopher James Huff wrote in message ...
>I don't think the "virus" is available, and it wouldn't work with the
>security features in POV 3.5 anyway.


The virus is sitting in povray.binaries.scene-files (Title: POV-Ray Scene
Virus).  It was designed in POV-Ray 3.1, but it works just fine in POV-Ray
3.5.  With the default security settings, it will spend the next 80 years
infecting every file in the current directory.

(BTW, it doesn't *quite* work in POV 3.1 because of a bug in how escape
sequences are handled.)

--
Mark

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Mark Wagner wrote:
> 
> The virus [...]

Cut-n-paste + a handful of Perl == insane giggling.

That's truly sick, Mark.  Thank you.  :)

Deaken

Post a reply to this message

3c4a67cf$1@news.povray.org...
> Are these all freeware programs,
> because the one disconnect with Moray is that its retail product and that
> does not work very well with the free nature of POV. What about including
> some of these products in the gray text, would that be a turn off?

With Hamapatch going shareware, the number of freeware, actually popular,
presently supported modelers is close to 0 right now (blender is a special
case and blender-to-pov scripts are currently under development). New
modelers are popping up every week though.

> I wonder about the statment "it's impossible to really unleash povray's
> power without learning the scene description language"? How is that true?
> "And some of the coolest povray stuff is not implemented in these modelers
> yet." Well there is SO MUCH stuff in POV Ray that is implemented in these
> modelers that I am not sure a book needs to cover everything in POV Ray,
> that seems like a daunting and almost impossible requirement.

Currently, two features allow povray 3.5 to produce results as good as the
latest batch of costly professional renderers : radiosity and photon
mapping. AFAIK, the 3.5 version of these features is not implemented in any
modeler yet (OK, I suppose that there may be plans to do so for Moray).
Isosurfaces are also a very important feature, quite unique by what it
allows users to do (and again not supported elsewhere). And of course, the
programming features of the SDL (such as macros, loops etc.) have become
essential. Sure, you can get far without these features, but only 1997-far.

Again, I suggest that you get acquainted with how current users are actually
using povray these days. A good start would be reading some of the *.txt
files that go with the IRTC images, for instance (just look at the 6 top
entries of each round) : that will give you a good idea of the various tools
used. Browsing through past povray.binaries.images would help you to get an
idea of the features that people appreciate most. You could also look up
what the "competition" is in terms of rendering quality (see
http://www.splutterfish.com) , since this is what many people expect now.

G.

--

**********************
http://www.oyonale.com
**********************
- Graphic experiments
- POV-Ray and Poser computer images
- Posters

Post a reply to this message

"Gilles Tran" <tra### [at] inapginrafr> wrote in message
news:3c4c0c21$1@news.povray.org...

> 3c4a67cf$1@news.povray.org...
> Currently, two features allow povray 3.5 to produce results as good as the
> latest batch of costly professional renderers : radiosity and photon
> mapping. AFAIK, the 3.5 version of these features is not implemented in any
> modeler yet

BTW 3.5 Radiosity is used in 3dCanvas Pro.

--
#local X=20*<-2,2,5>;sphere_sweep{catmull_rom_spline 6<-8,-8>1<-8,-8>1<-8,8>1<
8,-8>1<8,8>1<8,8>1translate 20*z pigment{gradient z scale 3color_map{[0rgb<0,9
,18>][1rgb 0]}}}#local K=2*z*X-X;#local R=seed(clock);blob{#while(K.x>X.x)
#local N=X+<rand(R)rand(R)1>/3;#local X=(vlength(N-K)<vlength(X-K)?N:2*X-N);
sphere{X,1,1rotate z*90}sphere{X,1,1}#end pigment{rgbt 1}interior{media{//Nekar
emission<2,4,5>*5}}hollow scale.05}//   http://nekar_xenos.tripod.com/metanoia/


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.314 / Virus Database: 175 - Release Date: 2002/01/11

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Randy and others:

Thanks for that vote of confidence. Ultimately I will follow my instincts,
but the reason I am asking the group for feedback is in fact to do my market
research. When first published Ray Tracing Creations there was only a very
tiny mailing list and Drew Wells and I had to send a lot of emails to
discover what the expectations of our users might be, still in the end we
did what we felt was best at that time.

Its clear that POV Ray has done a lot of growing up in the last 6 years
since I published that book, and what it can now do as a procedural language
far exceeds what I ever expected. There are many possible approaches one
could take to a book on POV Ray, and there are probably several volumes one
could publish. We could take the approach that the SDL is a general purpose
language and write a primer on its statements and functions, or we could
focus just the fundamentals of ray tracing and don't go so deep into the
SDL, or we could use Moray to bootstrap the reader so that they are
productive early in the text, then dive into the language statements in more
depth (hoping we have not lost those Moray users to the crutch it provides).
We could use Hamapatch or Povlab instead of Moray or in addition to Moray.

As I look and listen I am beginning to see a structure that will satisfy
everyone which involves more of a spiral approach that winds though the
learning space in a way that all the major topics are presented but
sometimes more than once. I used this approach in Basic Programming Primer
and in C Primer Plus and the with Lafore in Object Oriented Programming in
C++ and the last two of those are still in print after about 5 editions, so
I know that works. I also see that this would not be a small book, the
Materials Editor alone could be a huge chapter, maybe a book by itself. This
might end up being a POV Ray Bible rather than a Primer.

Those are my thoughts and feelings for today, however I am still
investigating. BTW I tried Hamapatch and did not find it anywhere as refined
and complete as Moray. Povlab is a DOS program and I just can't see time
traveling backwards on this book. The idea of writing procedures that do
other things than ray trace with the SDL is clever and cute and might be
worth a few pages to show its flexibility but I don't think diving into that
capability makes any sense right now.

I very much appreciate all the great feedback and ideas that have been
generated by the group. Thanks!

Mitch

"Randy Hawley" <rha### [at] iquestnet> wrote in message
news:3C4### [at] iquestnet...
> Mitchell,
>
> I am usually just a lurker on this group, but with the reception you have
been
> getting on here lately, I just had to speak up.
>
> The Waite group books I remember were all excellent. Period.
>
> Obviously, there would be interest in a new book.  Not to discount the
idea of
> doing some market research, but why don't you follow your own instincts
about
> what to include in your book.  They are your ideas, it would be your book,
and
> if you continue in your tradition of excellence, it will be a good book.
I
> think (I say with my asbestos underwear on) that everybody currently
pitching
> criticism your way should just hold their comments and wait for your new
book
> (if there will be one) to come out.  It will speak for itself.
>
> Respectfully,
>
>     Randy Hawley
>
>
> Mitchell Waite wrote:
>
> > Some people say that the POV Ray SDL is a turn off for new users, others
say
> > that modeling programs are a turn off to scripters There seems to be a
real
> > scism here. There are issues with Moray's right handed polor
coordinates,
> > and some thing sPartch or Hamapatch are a better choce (tho I have not
heard
> > why they are). When I was speaking of putting Moray text in a gray box I
did
> > not mean that text would reproduce the user docs in Moray. I don't see
my
> > book idea as competing with either Moray or POV Ray docs, that would be
a
> > waste of trees. I want to improve the tutorials, not compete with them.
I
> > think that the tutorials in the POV Ray and Moray docs are very uneven,
some
> > are great, some are okay, and some are poor.
> >
> > I know very little about this other products: blender, spatch,
hamapatch,
> > anim8tor, amapi, rhino. I have tried blender but it would not run
properly
> > on my Win2K machine with dual LCD monitors. Are these all freeware
programs,
> > because the one disconnect with Moray is that its retail product and
that
> > does not work very well with the free nature of POV. What about
including
> > some of these products in the gray text, would that be a turn off?
> >
> > I wonder about the statment "it's impossible to really unleash povray's
> > power without learning the scene description language"? How is that
true?
> > "And some of the coolest povray stuff is not implemented in these
modelers
> > yet." Well there is SO MUCH stuff in POV Ray that is implemented in
these
> > modelers that I am not sure a book needs to cover everything in POV Ray,
> > that seems like a daunting and almost impossible requirement.
> >
> > "Furthermore the structure of a book about Moray would should be quite
> > different from one about Povray." I don't see how this follows. Why
would
> > they have to have different structures? Seems like "here is how to do
> > something in POV" could easily be parallel with "here is how its done in
> > Moray", or whatever modeler you are using.
> >
> > I very much appreciate the feelback, its helping me calibrate my ideas
for
> > the team that is forming. Nothing has been decided so this is a great
time
> > for people to jump in and help shape this project.
>

Post a reply to this message

Very useful information, thanks. Radiosity and Photon mapping are awesome
features and I will spend more time learning about them. Keep in mind that
this book is not being written for existing POV Ray users specifically but
rather for people that have never heard of it as well as people that have.
Therefore its probably not going to satisfy all the needs of the advanced
and well rendered users. My only competition at this time is my own book
which is out of print. I would also not be surprised if Lutz adds those two
features to Moray at some point, but again I don't see that Moray is going
to consume huge numbers of pages in this book either.

"Gilles Tran" <tra### [at] inapginrafr> wrote in message
news:3c4c0c21$1@news.povray.org...

> 3c4a67cf$1@news.povray.org...
> > Are these all freeware programs,
> > because the one disconnect with Moray is that its retail product and
that
> > does not work very well with the free nature of POV. What about
including
> > some of these products in the gray text, would that be a turn off?
>
> With Hamapatch going shareware, the number of freeware, actually popular,
> presently supported modelers is close to 0 right now (blender is a special
> case and blender-to-pov scripts are currently under development). New
> modelers are popping up every week though.
>
> > I wonder about the statment "it's impossible to really unleash povray's
> > power without learning the scene description language"? How is that
true?
> > "And some of the coolest povray stuff is not implemented in these
modelers
> > yet." Well there is SO MUCH stuff in POV Ray that is implemented in
these
> > modelers that I am not sure a book needs to cover everything in POV Ray,
> > that seems like a daunting and almost impossible requirement.
>
> Currently, two features allow povray 3.5 to produce results as good as the
> latest batch of costly professional renderers : radiosity and photon
> mapping. AFAIK, the 3.5 version of these features is not implemented in
any
> modeler yet (OK, I suppose that there may be plans to do so for Moray).
> Isosurfaces are also a very important feature, quite unique by what it
> allows users to do (and again not supported elsewhere). And of course, the
> programming features of the SDL (such as macros, loops etc.) have become
> essential. Sure, you can get far without these features, but only
1997-far.
>
> Again, I suggest that you get acquainted with how current users are
actually
> using povray these days. A good start would be reading some of the *.txt
> files that go with the IRTC images, for instance (just look at the 6 top
> entries of each round) : that will give you a good idea of the various
tools
> used. Browsing through past povray.binaries.images would help you to get
an
> idea of the features that people appreciate most. You could also look up
> what the "competition" is in terms of rendering quality (see
> http://www.splutterfish.com) , since this is what many people expect now.
>
> G.
>
> --
>
> **********************
> http://www.oyonale.com
> **********************
> - Graphic experiments
> - POV-Ray and Poser computer images
> - Posters
>
>
>

Post a reply to this message

"Mitchell Waite" <mit### [at] dnaicom> wrote in message
news:3c4c397a@news.povray.org...
> Very useful information, thanks. Radiosity and Photon mapping are awesome
> features and I will spend more time learning about them. Keep in mind that
> this book is not being written for existing POV Ray users specifically but
> rather for people that have never heard of it as well as people that have.

    You may well get a large number of readers from the folk who use other
rendering programs. They will be looking for things like this even though
they may not have even heard of PovRay.

    I mean, it's not like Povray gets a lot of coverage in the 3D mags.

Post a reply to this message

"Mitchell Waite" wrote:
> I also see that this would not be a small book, the
> Materials Editor alone could be a huge chapter, maybe
> a book by itself. This might end up being a POV Ray
> Bible rather than a Primer.

AFAIK two regular books will sell better than one book that it twice as big.
IMO it'll be a much better idea to publish several books with different
approaches on the subject than publishing one big bible. A smaller book is
often more inviting to get started on for many people.

And with a big book there's a great chance that many users will not read it
all maybe because they're not interested in all the aspects. There are also
users who are not willing to pay the price for a large book. If you publish
more smaller books users can try out one and buy more if they liked the
first one.

Rune
--
3D images and anims, include files, tutorials and more:
Rune's World:    http://rsj.mobilixnet.dk (updated Jan 20)
POV-Ray Users:   http://rsj.mobilixnet.dk/povrayusers/
POV-Ray Webring: http://webring.povray.co.uk

Post a reply to this message

"Mitchell Waite" <mit### [at] dnaicom> wrote in message
news:3c4c397a@news.povray.org...
> Very useful information, thanks. Radiosity and Photon mapping are awesome
> features and I will spend more time learning about them. Keep in mind that
> this book is not being written for existing POV Ray users specifically but
> rather for people that have never heard of it as well as people that have.

A couple of suggestions,

A section on extending POV
 - writing GUI extensions
 - writing patches

A section on the community
- POV history http://www.simberon.com/pov_history.htm
- IRTC http://www.irtc.org
- IMP http://www.imp.org (a shameless plug)

Post a reply to this message

Nice ideas Tom. GUI extensions probably belongs in an appendix. By "patches"
do you program patches to the langauge?
I certainly would like to cover the history of POV Ray and the IRTC contest.
Not sure about the moive stuff but it deserves a link as does the
distributed ray tracing project.

Mitch

"Tom Galvin" <tom### [at] nospamdataforgecom> wrote in message
news:3c4c7f00$1@news.povray.org...
>
> "Mitchell Waite" <mit### [at] dnaicom> wrote in message
> news:3c4c397a@news.povray.org...
> > Very useful information, thanks. Radiosity and Photon mapping are
awesome
> > features and I will spend more time learning about them. Keep in mind
that
> > this book is not being written for existing POV Ray users specifically
but
> > rather for people that have never heard of it as well as people that
have.
>
> A couple of suggestions,
>
> A section on extending POV
>  - writing GUI extensions
>  - writing patches
>
> A section on the community
> - POV history http://www.simberon.com/pov_history.htm
> - IRTC http://www.irtc.org
> - IMP http://www.imp.org (a shameless plug)
>
>

Post a reply to this message