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"Chris C" <newsadmin[despam] at povray.org> wrote in message
news:3a49c73c@news.povray.org...
>
> "Tom Melly" <tom### [at] tomandlu couk> wrote in message
news:3a49b723@news.povray.org...
> > Well?
> >
> > (It's not showing up and has been removed from the avail. newsgroups on
this
> > server).
>
> off-topic was removed due to consistent abuse.
>
Don't worry I'm not going to drag this on unnecessarily - I've only just
got round to visiting the news server after a couple of weeks break and, as
a regular poster in p.o-t (and after reading the rest of the thread), I just
wanted air a few thoughts.
1, I'd pretty much been ignoring the whole M.G. thing, did things in
really escalate _so far_ in p.o-t that it called for such draconian
measures?
2, Why such a draconian approach ? Warn anyone the abuses the groups and
then ban them if necessary, but penalising everyone for one or two peoples
bad behaviour just pisses everyone off and merely shifts the problem.
3, I'm glad to see that p.o-t is returning, a forum as popular and as
eclectic as ours needs somewhere like p.o-t for exactly the reasons that,
IIRC, the news admins stated when p.o-t was first set up - Threads going
'off-topic' is inevitable within this type of 'community forum', and they're
an important part of keeping such a forum alive, without p.o-t all the other
groups (particularly p.general) get clogged up with this banter.
4, How, on earth did it come to this ? It seems to me that the majority
of the users here are intelligent, mature, people (many of the younger
members of our community often appear far more mature than some of us older
ones) and we all seem to agree that out and out flame wars have no place on
this server. Flame wars cannot and do not turn in infernos without someone
feeding or fanning the flames. The big problem, and a trap I find myself too
easily falling into, is that one persons 'constructive criticism' can be
another's 'bigoted abuse' - but, as intelligent, mature, people shouldn't we
be able to self police this problem ?
5, This marks a very disappointing moment in news.povray.org's history,
unfortunately, deeds cannot be undone and we have no way of knowing the
future, but I hope we can learn for this experience and 'grow' as a
community. Shit, I'm starting to sound like a hippie now, so, to kind of sum
up, I'll say one final thing...
Reply directly, email the poster or just ignore the lot - it's your
choice and that's the only way a community like this can operate - only you,
yourself, can effectively police what you read here and no-one is forcing
you to reply, however when you do decide to reply to a post, remember,
always, that this is a community and not your own personal forum - respect
that community and it will respect you (I personally have forced myself (too
late some might think in some cases (but I'm getting better at it)), on
several occasions, to pull out of a thread that I'd have liked to have
continued when it was clear that it was going absolutely nowhere and was
rapidly devolving).
Oh, and now that there's nowhere else to do it... Happy New Year one and
all! I hope everyone had a suitably festive holiday period and I wish you
all luck, prosperity and good health in 2K+1.
--
Scott Hill.
Software Engineer.
E-Mail : sco### [at] innocentcom
PGP Key : http://pgpkeys.mit.edu:11371
Pandora's Box : http://www.pandora-software.com
*Everything in this message/post is purely IMHO and no-one-else's*
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"Scott Hill" <sco### [at] innocentcom> wrote :
>
> 1, I'd pretty much been ignoring the whole M.G. thing, did things in
> really escalate _so far_ in p.o-t that it called for such draconian
> measures?
No. His use of the word "Dimocrat" seems to be the triggering event, but
the purported offence was his sigs which had been pretty much ignored for
months before. Who knows what happened?
> 2, Why such a draconian approach ? Warn anyone the abuses the groups
and
> then ban them if necessary, but penalising everyone for one or two peoples
> bad behaviour just pisses everyone off and merely shifts the problem.
Agreed. If the policy says something then the policy should be
followed -first-, then if more drastic measures are required go there.
> 3, I'm glad to see that p.o-t is returning, a forum as popular and as
> eclectic as ours needs somewhere like p.o-t for exactly the reasons that,
> IIRC, the news admins stated when p.o-t was first set up - Threads going
> 'off-topic' is inevitable within this type of 'community forum', and
they're
> an important part of keeping such a forum alive, without p.o-t all the
other
> groups (particularly p.general) get clogged up with this banter.
Again, agreed. The "community of POV happens in OT more than otherwise.
Sometimes communities get stressfull, but that is what a community is like.
Learn to live with it here or you can't live with it anywhere.
> Flame wars cannot and do not turn in infernos without someone
> feeding or fanning the flames.
POT has -never- had a flame war. Nothing even close. The closest we have
had was Mosl claiming that everyone but he was a "moron hypocrits" (sic).
> only you,
> yourself, can effectively police what you read here and no-one is forcing
> you to reply,
Nothing could be more relevant to the issue.
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Bill Dewitt wrote:
> No. His use of the word "Dimocrat" seems to be the triggering event, but
> the purported offence was his sigs which had been pretty much ignored for
> months before.
The sigs were never ignored. The intolerance towards them grew until they
could not be ignored any longer. I would go as far as to say the news admin.
has shown extrodinary tolerance and patience in the last two years.
> > Flame wars cannot and do not turn in infernos without someone
> > feeding or fanning the flames.
>
> POT has -never- had a flame war. Nothing even close.
Mostly true but things have been said that would better have been left
unsaid. Personal insults and bigotry being at the top of the list. You
don't need a flame war to act in a socially unacceptable manner.
I feel it is prudent to mention that p.o-t is not likely to return
until this topic fizzles out here in .general. We would really like
to get this behind us and move on.
--
Ken Tyler
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...TO get it shut down?
Pardon me asking, but I've been taking off a lot of computer time to listen
and work on music, etc etc, and so far it's paid off :-)
I also got a job, which (the first few days) were long and hard and left me
worn out, so I couldn't get much computer time in. So, that added to my
week long disappearance.
So, an explanation would be appreciated. Chris C's comment about "constant
abuse" seems to fit well considering what was happening the last time I took
a peak...
The biggest problem with p.o.t being gone is that you can no longer post
"followups to p.o.t". Everything would build up here or on another of the
POV/Moray groups...
-Ian
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Matt Giwe (and NOT David Fontaine) wrote:
> Australian law considers it a felony to criticize Israel.
Oh yeah?
Well, I hereby criticize Israel:
It should snow more in Israel.
Israelis love their children too much.
The trains don't run on time.
There. The cops can arrest me the next time I'm in Oz.
Regards,
John
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On Wed, 3 Jan 2001 02:21:03 -0500 Ian Burgmyer wrote:
>...TO get it shut down?
Hi, Ian. Please read Ken's post, message-ID:
<3A52B9EC.577C3B2E@pacbell.net> in this thread.
>The biggest problem with p.o.t being gone is that you can no longer post
>"followups to p.o.t". Everything would build up here or on another of the
>POV/Moray groups...
We can all help to maintain p.general and other on-topic groups by
*not* posting off-topic material. Guidelines for on-topic groups are
posted in the p.a.frequently-asked-questions group in "Welcome To the
POV-Ray News Groups". Thanks.
--
Alan - ako### [at] povrayorg - a k o n g <at> p o v r a y <dot> o r g
http://www.povray.org - Home of the Persistence of Vision Ray Tracer
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Ken wrote:
>
> Bill Dewitt wrote:
>
> > No. His use of the word "Dimocrat" seems to be the triggering event, but
> > the purported offence was his sigs which had been pretty much ignored for
> > months before.
>
> The sigs were never ignored. The intolerance towards them grew until they
> could not be ignored any longer. I would go as far as to say the news admin.
> has shown extrodinary tolerance and patience in the last two years.
>
> > > Flame wars cannot and do not turn in infernos without someone
> > > feeding or fanning the flames.
> >
> > POT has -never- had a flame war. Nothing even close.
>
> Mostly true but things have been said that would better have been left
> unsaid. Personal insults and bigotry being at the top of the list. You
> don't need a flame war to act in a socially unacceptable manner.
>
> I feel it is prudent to mention that p.o-t is not likely to return
> until this topic fizzles out here in .general. We would really like
> to get this behind us and move on.
>
> --
> Ken Tyler
I hesitate to step in, but I've got a bit to add.
Saying things in pot weren't really as bad as some people say doesn't alter the
fact that a lot of people started avoiding the whole newsgroup. For me
personally the things going on there really gave me a bad taste. I've tried to
ignore it or try to make a joke on it, or try to find some other sensible way to
react, but in the end I just skipped the whole group. The point is, that the
negative feelings from pot rubbed off on POV-Ray as a whole. This may seem
childish or over-sensitive but pot alone made POV-Ray seem something I'd rather
not be associated with. Off course this has nothing to do with the program
itself (just with, what is supposed to be "the community") and even though I
gave Blender a swirl too I still stick to my favorite 3D-program even though it
may not be the most logical choice for the job.
Naturally this is just my personal experience, but I've seen others announce
fleeing from pot and i guess others decided to drop it without announcing. If a
community exists merely by a bunch of people who decide to drop most of their
inhibitons and leave the 'oversensitive whiners' behind that's not really a
community I'd choose to be a part of and in fact I'd hardly call that a
community at all.
If, then, the owner of the server decides to put a stop to it, in whatever way,
for whatever reason, that's simply his right and just the thing you may expect.
I'd hope pot could return in some form or another, with everyone participating
in a somewhat more responsible manner. Perhaps (and here's my constructive
input) it'd be possible to have an active moderator who can jump in when
discussions go the wrong direction or even when they start of on the wrong foot.
Kind regards and best wishes for a new year,
Remco
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In article <3a52785b@news.povray.org>, "Scott Hill"
<sco### [at] innocentcom> wrote:
>2, Why such a draconian approach ? Warn anyone the abuses the groups
>and then ban them if necessary, but penalising everyone for one or two
>peoples bad behaviour just pisses everyone off and merely shifts the
>problem.
More importantly, if one or two people can shut down the discussion, the
group can never succeed. The world is a pretty big place; if it only
takes one person for something on-line to fail, that something is too
flawed to succeed. There's always one person.
>Reply directly, email the poster or just ignore the lot - it's your
>choice and that's the only way a community like this can operate -
>only you, yourself, can effectively police what you read here and
>no-one is forcing you to reply, however when you do decide to reply to
>a post, remember,
I already posted here once how I think "kill files" should be renamed
"interests and disinterests" to make people more willing to use them.
But yeah, unless the reader takes responsibility for what they read in
some manner, a single poster can bring the system down.
I never had any problem in p.o.t. The so-called "flamewars" (they
weren't) never took more than two or three lines in my newsreader unless
I specifically chose to read them.
Jerry
--
http://www.hoboes.com/jerry/
"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach him to fish, and you've
depleted the lake."--It Isn't Murder If They're Yankees
(http://www.hoboes.com/jerry/Murder/)
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On Wed, 03 Jan 2001 08:19:52 -0800, Jerry wrote:
>I already posted here once how I think "kill files" should be renamed
>"interests and disinterests" to make people more willing to use them.
>But yeah, unless the reader takes responsibility for what they read in
>some manner, a single poster can bring the system down.
You are deliberately missing the point. Our concern is not those of you
who know how to use killfiles, it is those of you who haven't been reading
povray.off-topic since the beginning and don't have appropriate killfiles
yet. Yes, maybe most members of the community aren't reading the flamewars[1]
but the most critical members of the community - the new ones - were being
exposed to all of the unadulterated sewage that passed for discussion in
povray.off-topic.
[1] and yes, they are flamewars. If you're one of the few people Matt never
called stupid or a liar, you obviously never tried reasoning with him.
--
Ron Parker http://www2.fwi.com/~parkerr/traces.html
My opinions. Mine. Not anyone else's.
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"Ron Parker" <ron### [at] povrayorg> wrote :
>
> [1] and yes, they are flamewars. If you're one of the few people Matt
never
> called stupid or a liar, you obviously never tried reasoning with him.
I can point you to some flame wars if you need to learn the difference.
Pointing out that someone may have said something the writer considers
stupid is not a flame war. Two or more people slamming each other with every
name in the book with no attempt to discuss a subject at all is a flame war.
We have had vigorous discussions that sometimes descended into an insult
or two... and one guy who cannot see that his sigs are out of line... Big
Diff.
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