anyone have any tips/pointers/urls/include files or anything to help with 
photorealistic rendering in pov-ray? I can't seem to get my images to that 
level of quality, the best I have done so far is ( 
http://daishi.50megs.com/glass_thingie.html ) 

which took 85+ hours to render on my PIII733 (most likely cause of all the 
tiny groves and high AA I had to use to get rid of the 'jaggies' )

thanx in advance

Post a reply to this message

Perhaps one of the most smooth renderings I've seen.
I can't believe a 85 hour render time with a 733MHz cpu, incredible just for
this one object.  Not a good commercial for the notebook (slower than
desktops/towers anyway) computer I have in mind.
I really don't understand you thinking this lacks photorealism so I can't
point anything out myself.
The web page tutorials I've seen are usually about getting the basics learned,
not photorealism.  There's even the 3 light rule type stuff but I don't think
of that as having to do with such a thing.

Bob

"daishi" <das### [at] x-pressnet> wrote in message
news:8F5DD1EBDdashixpressnet@204.213.191.228...
| anyone have any tips/pointers/urls/include files or anything to help with
| photorealistic rendering in pov-ray? I can't seem to get my images to that
| level of quality, the best I have done so far is

| http://daishi.50megs.com/glass_thingie.html )
|
| which took 85+ hours to render on my PIII733 (most likely cause of all the
| tiny groves and high AA I had to use to get rid of the 'jaggies' )
|
| thanx in advance

Post a reply to this message

daishi wrote:
> 
> anyone have any tips/pointers/urls/include files or anything to help with
> photorealistic rendering in pov-ray?

What makes an image appear realistic? Obviously, the objects have to be modelled
as accurately as possible; but this is not enough. Other very important
considerations are texturing and lighting - not necessarily in that order. The
actual methods vary greatly, depending on the type of scene.
Some scenes are more dependent on advanced lighting (radiosity for indoor
scenes, reflections and caustics for glass objects and polished surfaces, etc),
some require complex texturing (e.g. natural surfaces like organics and
minerals).
One thing to consider: there is often a difference between what _is_ realistic
and what is _perceived_ as realistic. For example: a common complaint about
computer-generated images is "too sterile". This preconception is so strong that
subtly exaggerating the "dirtyness" of the scene can in fact increase the
apparent realism of an image.

As for pointers: one excellent learning recource is the website of the Internet
Raytracing Competition (http://www.irtc.org).
You can find some amazing works there. Many of them have the source files
available for download (although not all are created in POV-Ray). Some also give
a detailed description of the creation process.

-- 
Margus Ramst

Personal e-mail: mar### [at] peakeduee
TAG (Team Assistance Group) e-mail: mar### [at] tagpovrayorg

Post a reply to this message

well I think the shadows looked to washed out personlly, and cause of the 
insane render time its not really worth it to me to go back in and re-tweak 
the area light

per### [at] aolcom?subject=PoV-News: (Bob Hughes) wrote in
<39559360@news.povray.org>: 

>Perhaps one of the most smooth renderings I've seen.
>I can't believe a 85 hour render time with a 733MHz cpu, incredible just
>for this one object.  Not a good commercial for the notebook (slower
>than desktops/towers anyway) computer I have in mind.
>I really don't understand you thinking this lacks photorealism so I
>can't point anything out myself.
>The web page tutorials I've seen are usually about getting the basics
>learned, not photorealism.  There's even the 3 light rule type stuff but
>I don't think of that as having to do with such a thing.
>
>Bob
>
>"daishi" <das### [at] x-pressnet> wrote in message
>news:8F5DD1EBDdashixpressnet@204.213.191.228...
>| anyone have any tips/pointers/urls/include files or anything to help
>| with photorealistic rendering in pov-ray? I can't seem to get my
>| images to that level of quality, the best I have done so far is
>
>| http://daishi.50megs.com/glass_thingie.html )
>|
>| which took 85+ hours to render on my PIII733 (most likely cause of all
>| the tiny groves and high AA I had to use to get rid of the 'jaggies' )
>|
>| thanx in advance
>
>

Post a reply to this message

hmm, maybe some post-processing of the final image to give it that 'grainy 
photographic quality'? (I don't think you can do this in pov can you?)

I know about the IRTC stuff, but a lot of the images aren't what I would 
consider photoquality. I guess I'll just have to go sorting through the 
image and see what people have done (and mess with radiosity)

thanks for the advice

mar### [at] peakeduee (Margus Ramst) wrote in
<39558E98.A582DAC3@peak.edu.ee>: 

>daishi wrote:
>> 
>> anyone have any tips/pointers/urls/include files or anything to help
>> with photorealistic rendering in pov-ray?
>
>What makes an image appear realistic? Obviously, the objects have to be
>modelled as accurately as possible; but this is not enough. Other very
>important considerations are texturing and lighting - not necessarily in
>that order. The actual methods vary greatly, depending on the type of
>scene. Some scenes are more dependent on advanced lighting (radiosity
>for indoor scenes, reflections and caustics for glass objects and
>polished surfaces, etc), some require complex texturing (e.g. natural
>surfaces like organics and minerals).
>One thing to consider: there is often a difference between what _is_
>realistic and what is _perceived_ as realistic. For example: a common
>complaint about computer-generated images is "too sterile". This
>preconception is so strong that subtly exaggerating the "dirtyness" of
>the scene can in fact increase the apparent realism of an image.
>
>As for pointers: one excellent learning recource is the website of the
>Internet Raytracing Competition (http://www.irtc.org).
>You can find some amazing works there. Many of them have the source
>files available for download (although not all are created in POV-Ray).
>Some also give a detailed description of the creation process.
>

Post a reply to this message

daishi wrote:
> 
> hmm, maybe some post-processing of the final image to give it that 'grainy
> photographic quality'? (I don't think you can do this in pov can you?)
> 

Well, MegaPOV has post-process ability, although I don't think a suitable filter
has been implemented currently. But what I mainly meant was exaggerating
imperfections in textures and object arrangement.

-- 
Margus Ramst

Personal e-mail: mar### [at] peakeduee
TAG (Team Assistance Group) e-mail: mar### [at] tagpovrayorg

Post a reply to this message

In article <395735A6.FC48933C@peak.edu.ee>, Margus Ramst 
<mar### [at] peakeduee> wrote:

> daishi wrote:
> > 
> > hmm, maybe some post-processing of the final image to give it that 
> > 'grainy
> > photographic quality'? (I don't think you can do this in pov can you?)
> > 
> 
> Well, MegaPOV has post-process ability, although I don't think a 
> suitable filter has been implemented currently. But what I mainly 
> meant was exaggerating imperfections in textures and object 
> arrangement.

Using the add, subtract, multiply, and divide post_process filters with 
noise_pigment should work fine...however, you either need a Mac or the 
ability to compile the MegaPOV+ code yourself.

-- 
Christopher James Huff - Personal e-mail: chr### [at] maccom
TAG(Technical Assistance Group) e-mail: chr### [at] tagpovrayorg
Personal Web page: http://homepage.mac.com/chrishuff/
TAG Web page: http://tag.povray.org/

Post a reply to this message

there are two books i want to get about photorealism in 3d that got
really good reviews.  both are platform and application independant.  i
can't recall the exact titles off the top of my head, but i believe the
first was simply, "3d photorealism" and the second was "advanced 3d
photorealism" both by the same guy.
  i think the main thing one needs for photrealism is composition.  for
example, my house is by no means messy, but at the same time, i haven't
placed my coffee table exactly perpedicular to the walls.  it's off a
little due to human error and the fact it gets bumped around sometimes. 
pictures aren't hung on the walls exactly straight, table arrangements
aren't exactly centered, magazines aren't stacked perfectly, there is
fabric on various items that doesn't lay uniformly (hard to do in pov),
and there is simply a lot of stuff and modelling them all would be hard
to do.  even hardback books don't stand completely upright unless they
are squeezed in tight.  starting to see what i mean?  in fact, i think
this is the area that povers need to work on the most.
  the next main thing is textures.  this is very difficult to do in
pov.  i'm not sure why.  i mean, other packages come with all kinds of
nifty textures that are perfect to use 'off the shelf', but povers have
a heck of a time (myself included) finding textures that are even close
to the right thing.  and i'm not sure if that is a fault of the user, or
of the application.  but it seems to me that it shouldn't take hours or
days to find one texture good enough to be photorealistic (like battle
damage on a spaceship).  the best solution i have seen in pictures is
the use of image maps.  gilles' and h.e.day's best pics use them a lot. 
this gives the user control over exactly how something looks, but it
requires the person to be proficient in a paint program.  it also (in my
opinion) precludes the option of making a group of the same object, each
with a unique look (like the battle damage i'm still looking for).  it
may be that pov simply needs to find out how other apps do their 3d
textures and see if any can be incorporated into pov.
  i think someone mentioned modelling as another point, but that seems
pretty obvious and it is the easiest thing to work on and finish to
satisfaction.
  your pic looks good.  maybe what you could have used is something
behind the picture, but in front of the light to cast soft shadows, or
use a table instead of a plane, or choose a background color more the
color of a neutral wall color.  or you could have put it on a pedestal
or in a wall niche like in a museum; something to give it a location and
not mak it look like it is just a piece of glass on some eternal plane. 
hope some of this helps and good luck.

daishi wrote:
> 
> anyone have any tips/pointers/urls/include files or anything to help with
> photorealistic rendering in pov-ray? I can't seem to get my images to that
> level of quality, the best I have done so far is (
> http://daishi.50megs.com/glass_thingie.html )
> 
> which took 85+ hours to render on my PIII733 (most likely cause of all the
> tiny groves and high AA I had to use to get rid of the 'jaggies' )
> 
> thanx in advance

Post a reply to this message

The books you are thinking about are by Bill Fleming. At this time he
has three out:

3D Photorealism Toolkit

Advanced Photorealism   ( This one I can't find at the momentl, so I am
not sure of the title. )

3D Modeling & Surfacing

I have all three and recomend them without reservation. They are a
little expensive but well worth the price.

Ken Matassa

Post a reply to this message

the main problem with 3d in general is that the scene/textures/anything are 
to 'perfect' (most of my scenes I do do in 'hyper realism' though. its only 
a few times I like to get the less then perfect 'real world')

for textures, noise is your friend. one thing I think pov could use is 
fractal noise, this seems to be better then the other types of noise imo

also a fully extensible shading language ala renderman wouldn't hurt either 
.....

I was only trying to get the vase thing to look photorealistic. I think one 
of the problems might be is that the vase was just a massive triangle mesh 
(exported from rhino). I can't see anyway to construct it nativly in pov 
(and I wouldn't either, I do all my modelling in rhino these days)

I still say the shadows are to washed out. maybe some day I'll retweak them  
, after I purchase that dual ghz comp :)

rco### [at] yahoocom (ryan constantine) wrote in
<3957C07D.ACCDCC57@yahoo.com>: 

>there are two books i want to get about photorealism in 3d that got
>really good reviews.  both are platform and application independant.  i
>can't recall the exact titles off the top of my head, but i believe the
>first was simply, "3d photorealism" and the second was "advanced 3d
>photorealism" both by the same guy.
>  i think the main thing one needs for photrealism is composition.  for
>example, my house is by no means messy, but at the same time, i haven't
>placed my coffee table exactly perpedicular to the walls.  it's off a
>little due to human error and the fact it gets bumped around sometimes. 
>pictures aren't hung on the walls exactly straight, table arrangements
>aren't exactly centered, magazines aren't stacked perfectly, there is
>fabric on various items that doesn't lay uniformly (hard to do in pov),
>and there is simply a lot of stuff and modelling them all would be hard
>to do.  even hardback books don't stand completely upright unless they
>are squeezed in tight.  starting to see what i mean?  in fact, i think
>this is the area that povers need to work on the most.
>  the next main thing is textures.  this is very difficult to do in
>pov.  i'm not sure why.  i mean, other packages come with all kinds of
>nifty textures that are perfect to use 'off the shelf', but povers have
>a heck of a time (myself included) finding textures that are even close
>to the right thing.  and i'm not sure if that is a fault of the user, or
>of the application.  but it seems to me that it shouldn't take hours or
>days to find one texture good enough to be photorealistic (like battle
>damage on a spaceship).  the best solution i have seen in pictures is
>the use of image maps.  gilles' and h.e.day's best pics use them a lot. 
>this gives the user control over exactly how something looks, but it
>requires the person to be proficient in a paint program.  it also (in my
>opinion) precludes the option of making a group of the same object, each
>with a unique look (like the battle damage i'm still looking for).  it
>may be that pov simply needs to find out how other apps do their 3d
>textures and see if any can be incorporated into pov.
>  i think someone mentioned modelling as another point, but that seems
>pretty obvious and it is the easiest thing to work on and finish to
>satisfaction.
>  your pic looks good.  maybe what you could have used is something
>behind the picture, but in front of the light to cast soft shadows, or
>use a table instead of a plane, or choose a background color more the
>color of a neutral wall color.  or you could have put it on a pedestal
>or in a wall niche like in a museum; something to give it a location and
>not mak it look like it is just a piece of glass on some eternal plane. 
>hope some of this helps and good luck.
>
>daishi wrote:
>> 
>> anyone have any tips/pointers/urls/include files or anything to help
>> with photorealistic rendering in pov-ray? I can't seem to get my
>> images to that level of quality, the best I have done so far is (
>> http://daishi.50megs.com/glass_thingie.html )
>> 
>> which took 85+ hours to render on my PIII733 (most likely cause of all
>> the tiny groves and high AA I had to use to get rid of the 'jaggies' )
>> 
>> thanx in advance

Post a reply to this message