As I said, I am not an attourney, but I think that the law of the country
where the infringement happens applies, in this case the country where the
book is published.
I agree that it would be much too tedious to sue for you, if this has to
happen in the US.
But if US citizens decide to sue, you could probably hook up with them (some
sort of class action lawsuit).

Johannes.

Fabien <fab### [at] skynetbe> wrote in message
news:37EF3FC1.E31C91BE@skynet.be...
> Johannes Hubert wrote:
> >
> > Since the US is usually regarded as litigation heaven, I would say: Sue
> > them! You can finally make some money with your hobby!
> >
> > Now, jokes aside, I actually mean that quite seriously, because of the
> > following reason:
> >
> > They should not get away with it. If you don't sue them, they'll do it
> > again. If it is a large publisher, you'll probably get some nice
punitive
> > damages too.
>
> The problem is that it seems that some images comes from non-US people
> (Nathan O'Brien, myself,...), and while it is clear that they did
> something
> wrong, suing them from here is not an easy matter.
>
> Is there any known case of such multi-country copyright infringement of
> net-availiable material ?
>
> Fabien.

Post a reply to this message

Fabien wrote:
> 
> Johannes Hubert wrote:
> >
> > Since the US is usually regarded as litigation heaven, I would say: Sue
> > them! You can finally make some money with your hobby!
> >
> > Now, jokes aside, I actually mean that quite seriously, because of the
> > following reason:
> >
> > They should not get away with it. If you don't sue them, they'll do it
> > again. If it is a large publisher, you'll probably get some nice punitive
> > damages too.
> 
> The problem is that it seems that some images comes from non-US people
> (Nathan O'Brien, myself,...), and while it is clear that they did
> something
> wrong, suing them from here is not an easy matter.
> 
> Is there any known case of such multi-country copyright infringement of
> net-availiable material ?
> 
> Fabien.

  I again urge the involved parties to obtain informed information on
this subject. Specificaly of interest to your case would be sections
2.8 and 2.9 at the URL listed below where it details a publishers fair
and reasonable right to publish material without the copyright holders
consent for educational purposes.

ftp://ftp.aimnet.com/pub/users/carroll/law/copyright/faq/part2

See also the following page for information regarding copyright law
where it concerns international treaties signed for the protection
of copyright holders and how it entitles you to fair protection
against copyright enfringement by countries that have signed said
international copyright treaties:

ftp://ftp.aimnet.com/pub/users/carroll/law/copyright/faq/part4

The previously sited page for US copyright law title 17 gives you
details on specific courses of action regarding remedaition of
copyright enfringment:  http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/


  In my own interpertation of what I have so far read you are not
likely to have a strong enough case to win a monetary award for
presumed damages arising from unauthorized use of your materials.
I only say this because of the way that they have been used for
educational purposes. Had your images been used as part of a book
that showcases computer generated images and it's sole purpose
is to make a clear profit of the sales of the book for the images
it contains then you would have a strong case against the authors
and the publisher. In this case the profit is being made instead
off of the intellectual content of the book and not the images
used to illustrate the concepts of it's content. Having said this
however I am no lawyer and I know little about your specific legal
right in this regard.


-- 
Ken Tyler
1100+ Povray, Graphics, 3D Rendering, and Raytracing Links:
http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html

Post a reply to this message

Ken wrote:

>   I again urge the involved parties to obtain informed information on
> this subject. Specificaly of interest to your case would be sections
> 2.8 and 2.9 at the URL listed below where it details a publishers fair
> and reasonable right to publish material without the copyright holders
> consent for educational purposes.

The document clearly states "NON-PROFIT educational purposes", which is
very different from "educational purposes".  For example, it could be
a teacher using the image to illustrate a lesson, as a slide, or printed
in something that the students get *at cost*.

The Prenhall book is hardly in the "non-profit" category...

Fabien.

Post a reply to this message

Johannes Hubert wrote:
> 
> As I said, I am not an attourney, but I think that the law of the country
> where the infringement happens applies, in this case the country where the
> book is published.
> I agree that it would be much too tedious to sue for you, if this has to
> happen in the US.
> But if US citizens decide to sue, you could probably hook up with them (some
> sort of class action lawsuit).
> 
> Johannes.
> 

Sueing assumes that the publisher is not all together bona fide. Now this is not
an elegant thing, but I don't really think the publisher here intentionally
broke some copyright-law. Perhaps a good first step would be to simply write a
(e-)letter, stating that they have used one (or more) of _your_ products and how
this could happen and then see how they react. It's good to not let this go
unnoticed. If the publisher has had a chance to defend his actions you can
decide what happens next.
Of course, chances are they'll ignore you, in which case sueing in court might
not really be an option but nailing them to a virtual wall on the internet (by
all sorts of ways) is! I think they're are a lot of people who'll support you
then.

Good luck,

Remco

Post a reply to this message

Fabien <fab### [at] skynetbe> wrote in message
news:37EF5163.3E5F0138@skynet.be...
> Ken wrote:
>
> >   I again urge the involved parties to obtain informed information on
> > this subject. Specificaly of interest to your case would be sections
> > 2.8 and 2.9 at the URL listed below where it details a publishers fair
> > and reasonable right to publish material without the copyright holders
> > consent for educational purposes.
>
> The document clearly states "NON-PROFIT educational purposes", which is
> very different from "educational purposes".  For example, it could be
> a teacher using the image to illustrate a lesson, as a slide, or printed
> in something that the students get *at cost*.
>
> The Prenhall book is hardly in the "non-profit" category...

I agree with Fabien here: A book by Prentice Hall is not for "educational
purposes" it is to make profit (for P.H.). That this book is then used in an
educational environment is a different story.

If it had been a lecture-script, probably compiled by a professor or a
student and sold for only the costs of copying and distribution, now that
would be a different story.

BTW: I know that it can be very dangerous for an U.S. citizen to give legal
advice without beeing accredited at the bar, so people, look out and at
least add a "I am not a lawyer or attourney" to your posts in this thread.

Johannes (who isn't a lawyer or attourney, and who doesn't really care,
since he doesn't live in the US... ;-)

Post a reply to this message

Johannes Hubert wrote:

> BTW: I know that it can be very dangerous for an U.S. citizen to give legal
> advice without beeing accredited at the bar, so people, look out and at
> least add a "I am not a lawyer or attourney" to your posts in this thread.
> 
> Johannes (who isn't a lawyer or attourney, and who doesn't really care,
> since he doesn't live in the US... ;-)

I have given the best advice I can think of - Seek knowlege from informed
sources such as from the sites I gave URL's for. Other than that I ain't
no lawyer (I previously made that same disclaimer) and have offered about
all I am going to on this matter. I would like to hear the outcome of any
actions that may be taken against the publisher and or author of the book.

-- 
Ken Tyler
1100+ Povray, Graphics, 3D Rendering, and Raytracing Links:
http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html

Post a reply to this message

Maybe I'm mistaken but I happened to think about this and it occured
to me that someone was asking about using renders in a text book here
or somewhere quite a long while ago, half year give or take a few
months perhaps?  I would say I'm imagining it but I don't think so.

Bob

Gautam N. Lad <vnl### [at] mynacom> wrote in message
news:37eed7b2@news.povray.org...
> Hi,
> I bought a text-book for one of my college courses, and
lo-and-behold, one
> of my renderings (Grade One), was in the book.  I was so surprised
and
> happy,
> considering it was the only non-winning image among other IRTC
> winners/runner ups.
>
> The book is called: Computers:
> Tools for an Information Age 6th Edition by H.L. Capron
> ISBN: 0-201-61211-9
> http://www.prenhall.com/capron
>
> Problem is, I was never told that my image would be appearing in the
book.
> Is this somehow breaking one of the IRTC rules or violating my
copyrights?
> All the files
> included for the submission included a statement from  me regarding
> permission of image/file, usage.
> I have written on my homepage's gallery and in the IRTC files (.POV,
.TXT,
> etc.) that if
> you wish to use the image, you must first contact me to get my
permission.
>
> Some of the images included in the book are (from the IRTC):
>
> - Roger, Gary and Bob by Jeane-Marie Haerens and Fabien Mosen
> - Untitled (image of Ice Cream Cone) by Nathan O'Brien (
> - Gomusic by Gena Obukhov (not sure if this is from IRTC)
> - Toco Toucan by Ian and Ethel MacKay
> - Pocketwatch by Kevin Odhner
> - Untitled (bucket of Sea Shells) by Steve Gowers (Summer theme)
> - Untitled (ship image) by Nathan O'Brien (Elements theme)
> - Grade One by Gautam Lad
> - Untitled (plane image) by Ian Armstrong (Flight theme)
> - Admiral Watch by Adrian Baumann
> - Ode to Prianesi by Nathan O'Brien
>
> My question to these artists: Did you receive any notice from the
> publisher/author? If not,
> do you think they violated your copyrights by using the image
without your
> permission?
>
> Also, I don't plan on taking any legal action or anything; it's just
that
> I'd like to know (in advance)
> where my work is being used.
>
>
> Thanks!
> Bye!
>
> --
> Gautam N. Lad
> ICQ #: 7196672
>
>
>

Post a reply to this message

On the one hand, I would have been honored to make it to print.
On the other hand, is there a way to make it more clear the uses we would
allow of our artwork.

Suppose we both:
A) Affirm the "I agree with the standard IRTC copyright" agreement each time,
     AND
B) Put "Copyright Joe Raytracer. 1999 All rights reserved."

Thus, it would be quite difficult to sue IRTC given A), but any other user
would have to explain why they used our image containing B).

Gautam N. Lad wrote:

> Hi,
> I bought a text-book for one of my college courses, and lo-and-behold, one
> of my renderings (Grade One), was in the book.  I was so surprised and
> happy,
> considering it was the only non-winning image among other IRTC
> winners/runner ups.
>
> The book is called: Computers:
> Tools for an Information Age 6th Edition by H.L. Capron
> ISBN: 0-201-61211-9
> http://www.prenhall.com/capron
>
> Problem is, I was never told that my image would be appearing in the book.
> Is this somehow breaking one of the IRTC rules or violating my copyrights?
> All the files
> included for the submission included a statement from  me regarding
> permission of image/file, usage.
> I have written on my homepage's gallery and in the IRTC files (.POV, .TXT,
> etc.) that if
> you wish to use the image, you must first contact me to get my permission.
>
> Some of the images included in the book are (from the IRTC):
>
> - Roger, Gary and Bob by Jeane-Marie Haerens and Fabien Mosen
> - Untitled (image of Ice Cream Cone) by Nathan O'Brien (
> - Gomusic by Gena Obukhov (not sure if this is from IRTC)
> - Toco Toucan by Ian and Ethel MacKay
> - Pocketwatch by Kevin Odhner
> - Untitled (bucket of Sea Shells) by Steve Gowers (Summer theme)
> - Untitled (ship image) by Nathan O'Brien (Elements theme)
> - Grade One by Gautam Lad
> - Untitled (plane image) by Ian Armstrong (Flight theme)
> - Admiral Watch by Adrian Baumann
> - Ode to Prianesi by Nathan O'Brien
>
> My question to these artists: Did you receive any notice from the
> publisher/author? If not,
> do you think they violated your copyrights by using the image without your
> permission?
>
> Also, I don't plan on taking any legal action or anything; it's just that
> I'd like to know (in advance)
> where my work is being used.
>
> Thanks!
> Bye!
>
> --
> Gautam N. Lad
> ICQ #: 7196672

Post a reply to this message

>Of course, chances are they'll ignore you, in which case sueing in court
might
>not really be an option but nailing them to a virtual wall on the internet
(by
>all sorts of ways) is! I think they're are a lot of people who'll support
you
>then.


Count me in. I'll help all I can. =)

Post a reply to this message

> The problem is that it seems that some images comes from non-US people
> (Nathan O'Brien, myself,...), and while it is clear that they did
> something
> wrong, suing them from here is not an easy matter.

Are any of the images by people in the US?  I find it interesting that whenever
any of these things comes up, I'm not one of the artists being ripped off.

I don't think anyone should make excuses for this publisher.  What they did is
blatent copyright infringement.  There's no other way an artists can be ripped
off when it comes to still images, other than perhaps a billboard ad.  There
are standard fees in this industry for the use of images, and they should have
sought out the artists and made agreements to use the images and provide
compensation.  I know for magazines it used to be $50 for B&W images and $100
or so for color.  I would think books would have similiar fees.

I understand why some people would feel honored to be published in a book, but
when you stop and think about what's really going on you can't help feel
robbed.  Would the author(s) of that book feel honored if you copied every page
into a word processor and started selling copies of the book yourself?  Imagine
what this world would be like if everyone gave the same amount of credit to the
work people do as so many do to the work an artist puts into his/her work.

I've never had to deal with this situation (yet), but if it happened to me I
would be making a huge stink about it.

-Mike

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