"POV-Ray is free... the internet isn't!"

An open letter from POV-Team coordinator
Chris Young

        One of my greatest pleasures as POV-Team coordinator is the
joyful emails I get from people who are surprised and grateful that
such a great program is free.  Even in an impersonal medium like
email, you can feel the joy and amazement when they see what a free
program can do.  Its like Santa just brought them a wonderful free toy
for grown-ups!

        It reminds me of my early years growing up in the late '50s in
middle-class, midwest, suburban America where my life as a 5 year old
was so carefree.  We weren't rich but there was always food, clothes,
and toys in abundance.  Relatives were generous on birthdays, Santa
delivered free stuff each year and when you wanted a gum ball at the
store, Mom always had an extra penny to put in the machine.

        It really shocked me one day when I saw Mom give money to the
milk man.  I asked why and Mom said "You gotta pay for it silly!".  I
though milk delivery was a free service from the government!  Further
investigation revealed that we don't pay the mail man but that stamps
cost money.  You don't pay the garbage man but there was something
called taxes involved there too.  How horrible!

        Somehow the internet community has adopted that same innocent
idea that I had at age 5 that everything is free or at least very
inexpensive.  Its true that for $15-$20 a month I can get unlimited
access, email and even my own home page.  However once you create
something people want to see, the costs can skyrocket.

        Team member Chris Cason has managed to negotiate various deals
to maintain our sites ftp.povray.org and www.povray.org for the past
several years.  Proceeds from CD-ROM sales and the small income from
our CompuServe GO POVRAY forum have helped to subsidize the expense
but recently things have gone way beyond the Team's ability to
support.

        In a recent month, we used over 100 gigabytes of bandwidth at
a cost of over $1,200 per month!  Clearly we aren't going to sell that
many CDs on a continual basis.  We've tried to minimize our site to
improve things but that's just a temporary fix.  We hope to do later
round beta testing and eventually full public release of POV-Ray 3.1
at povray.org which will make matters even worse.
        It is painful for me to be so blunt but I must remind everyone
that POV-Ray existed before povray.org and POV-Ray can continue
without povray.org if need be.  We are close to folding up the whole
operation unless we can get corporate sponsorship for the site.
        We do not want individual donations from users.  It would be
too hard to handle hundreds of $5-$10 donations.  Also the POV-Team is
not officially incorporated either as profit or non-profit.  Donations
can create tax problems for us.  Here are a few suggestions on how you
can help -

  o if you work in the industry (or any industry that could benefit
     from sponsoring some of the www.povray.org costs) you should 
     talk to your employers about sponsorship.

  o ditto for advertising. if you have a product, talk to your
    employers about possibly advertising on the site.

  o if you work in the retail industry, you could lobby their buyers
     to consider making a purchase of some IRTC CD's for resale.

        Our hope is that if a large bunch of users start lobbying
their bosses, we might see some things happen.  Please contact us at
w10### [at] povrayorg if you can help.

        The important thing to remember during this crisis is that the
5-year-old kid in me and in the other POV-Team members is still fully
committed to keeping POV-Ray itself fully free for the 5-year-old kids
in you.  We will not sell POV-Ray itself, but it is beginning to cost
us quite a bit of money just to offer it to you for free.  If we hope
to be able to deliver it for free, we're going to need some help.
        cy

p.s. feel ree to re-post this to other newsgroups or online services.

Post a reply to this message

povray.org admin team wrote:
> 
> "POV-Ray is free... the internet isn't!"

[mucho snippage]

>         It is painful for me to be so blunt but I must remind everyone
> that POV-Ray existed before povray.org and POV-Ray can continue
> without povray.org if need be.  We are close to folding up the whole
> operation unless we can get corporate sponsorship for the site.
>         We do not want individual donations from users.  It would be
> too hard to handle hundreds of $5-$10 donations.  Also the POV-Team is
> not officially incorporated either as profit or non-profit.  Donations
> can create tax problems for us.

[more snippage]
  
>         The important thing to remember during this crisis is that the
> 5-year-old kid in me and in the other POV-Team members is still fully
> committed to keeping POV-Ray itself fully free for the 5-year-old kids
> in you.  We will not sell POV-Ray itself, but it is beginning to cost
> us quite a bit of money just to offer it to you for free.  If we hope
> to be able to deliver it for free, we're going to need some help.
>         cy
> 
> p.s. feel ree to re-post this to other newsgroups or online services.


I haven't the foggiest idea about tax ramifications and whatnot and
completely sympathize. I'm sure I speak for everyone in saying that
we'd all like to help. However, aside from buying multiple copies of
the CD, it seems there isn't a way for the average user to help. Could
a non-profit entity be set up, kinda like a charity but not legally
tied to the POV-team, dedicated strictly to the online publication and 
distribution of POV? Hell, I'm no lawyer, but it seems there's gotta
be a way if advertising or corporate sponsorship doesn't become
available.

Just my 2 cents.

Post a reply to this message

Considering the outrageous price tag on commercial art software I would
happily pay $100 for POV-Ray.  Maybe the answer is some kind of reasonably
priced MEMBERSHIP in a "POV_Ray organization".  Membership would maybe
entitle you to access to the POV-Ray newsgroups, or maybe a newsletter or
POV magazine.  Or it might be advisable <gasp!> to make POV-Ray shareware. 
I'd rather pay for what I'm getting and be able to GET IT than to loose
access to the resources you're providing.

--Gary.

Wayne Gordon <way### [at] phoenixnet> wrote in article
<354### [at] phoenixnet>...
> povray.org admin team wrote:
> > 
> > "POV-Ray is free... the internet isn't!"
> 
> [mucho snippage]
> 
>

Post a reply to this message

Totally agree!  Would be a pity to lose such terrific program!!
I would totally kill for a Povray magazine too ;-)

Bryan Garnett-Law

Gary Shannon wrote in message <01bd7075$81359960$097a89d0@reboot>...
>Considering the outrageous price tag on commercial art software I would
>happily pay $100 for POV-Ray.  Maybe the answer is some kind of reasonably
>priced MEMBERSHIP in a "POV_Ray organization".  Membership would maybe
>entitle you to access to the POV-Ray newsgroups, or maybe a newsletter or
>POV magazine.  Or it might be advisable <gasp!> to make POV-Ray shareware.
>I'd rather pay for what I'm getting and be able to GET IT than to loose
>access to the resources you're providing.
>
>--Gary.
>
>Wayne Gordon <way### [at] phoenixnet> wrote in article
><354### [at] phoenixnet>...
>> povray.org admin team wrote:
>> >
>> > "POV-Ray is free... the internet isn't!"
>>
>> [mucho snippage]
>>
>>

Post a reply to this message

Bryan Garnett-Law wrote in message <6htpmj$qj4$1@oz.aussie.org>...
>Totally agree!  Would be a pity to lose such terrific program!!
>I would totally kill for a Povray magazine too ;-)
>
>Bryan Garnett-Law
>
>Gary Shannon wrote in message <01bd7075$81359960$097a89d0@reboot>...
>>Considering the outrageous price tag on commercial art software I would
>>happily pay $100 for POV-Ray.  Maybe the answer is some kind of reasonably
>>priced MEMBERSHIP in a "POV_Ray organization".  Membership would maybe
>>entitle you to access to the POV-Ray newsgroups, or maybe a newsletter or
>>POV magazine.  Or it might be advisable <gasp!> to make POV-Ray shareware.
>>I'd rather pay for what I'm getting and be able to GET IT than to loose
>>access to the resources you're providing.


I would be HAPPY to help, and I would even offer my linux box as a
distribution point. Unfortunately, as Chris said, when you pay for data
transfer it gets a little horrendous.

As for the magazine idea, I think it would be great. But the question here,
is.. Will it go the same way as the Pov-Zine? Is there the user base? I
would be happy to publish one, as I have connections here in Edmonton.
However, the problem is... Is there enough content to do so? I'm
encountering problems when trying to get articles for my site. If I could
manage to pay people, I would.. I'd love to support Pov-Ray even more.

As for shareware, unfortunately, what I know would happen, is that people
will use it, and not actually register it. If the source is available, why
bother trying? If the source isn't available, that's all well and good, but
it would put a stop to all the wonderful patches people are doing. If you
make Pov-Ray crippleware, where parts are disabled, nobody would use it. Sad
but true.

I don't have much in the way of financial resources, but if there was a way,
maybe with a "banner" service, to do more for Pov-Ray I would.
Unfortunately, with the only banner programs I know of, the Pov-Team would
only get like 5 cents, if someone clicked on them. That's a pittance.

If the cost is in maintaining the website, I'd be happy to do so. I have the
time and inclination to maintain a website on a daily basis. Unfortunately,
I don't have a decent location for it. It's either at GeoCities, which is
slow at times, or in my company's webspace. My boss wouldn't have a problem,
but there would be no place for the files. Good point about both options, is
that the hits and data transfer don't matter. You could do a data transfer
of 1000Gig, and they wouldn't care. I just joined the GeoCities "GeoPlus"
program. It gives me 20 megs of space, with extra space available at $2.50
per 5 meg. They will also host Virtual URLs, at another $5 a month. The
option is there... If this is the case, I would have NO problem with
covering these costs myself.

Twyst================================
EFnet and NewNet #povray Channel Operator
Website: http://twyst.home.ml.org
E-Mail: twy### [at] v-wavecom
=====================================

Post a reply to this message

Has anyone considered taking a 'distributed' approach?  E.g. there are
many POV related sites out in internet land...what if the povray.org site
only served as a central location for accessing POV pages located
thoughout the internet.  Those of us with some space and some bandwidth
could host a portion of the site...the povray webmasters could have access
to various sites to update pages as needed.

Just a thought.

Brian

povray.org admin team wrote:

> "POV-Ray is free... the internet isn't!"
>

Post a reply to this message

Your idea sounds like a good one... mirror web/ftp sites around the world.

;-)

Bryan
Brian W. Brown wrote in message
<3542B087.B9FD8A37@appstate.campus.mci.net>...
>Has anyone considered taking a 'distributed' approach?  E.g. there are
>many POV related sites out in internet land...what if the povray.org site
>only served as a central location for accessing POV pages located
>thoughout the internet.  Those of us with some space and some bandwidth
>could host a portion of the site...the povray webmasters could have access
>to various sites to update pages as needed.
>
>Just a thought.
>
>Brian
>
>povray.org admin team wrote:
>
>> "POV-Ray is free... the internet isn't!"
>>
>
>
>

Post a reply to this message

Gary Shannon <reb### [at] teleportcom> wrote in article
<01bd7075$81359960$097a89d0@reboot>...
> Considering the outrageous price tag on commercial art software I would
> happily pay $100 for POV-Ray.  Maybe the answer is some kind of
reasonably
> priced MEMBERSHIP in a "POV_Ray organization".  Membership would maybe
> entitle you to access to the POV-Ray newsgroups, or maybe a newsletter or
> POV magazine.  Or it might be advisable <gasp!> to make POV-Ray
shareware. 
> I'd rather pay for what I'm getting and be able to GET IT than to loose
> access to the resources you're providing.
> 
> --Gary.
> 

$100? Shareware? Nnnnooooo!!!  Don't let POV go the same way as everything
else :/ I'm sure (apart from it being the greatest raytracer around) one of
the main reasons it's so popular is because it's freeeeeee!  I know a lot
of hard work goes into POV, and perhaps it seems a bit unfair to expect
such a great product to be free... but it's managed before.  

If people are suggesting povray should become some old shareware "please
register" thing simply to keep povray.org up, then just scrap povray.org. 
What's the big deal?

With so many "fan" sites around on the internet, there would be no problem
with storing files etc.  As for the news server, there's always
comp.graphics.rendering.raytracing?...

Another great program, SubSpace, was recently made from freeware to
shareware.  Since then, many problems have arisen and it's simply become a
lot less popular.  It was only available to buy in the USA and in dollars,
though (like me) many of the players were in Europe.  All that's happened
to it now is that most people just get it on warez sites.

Can you really imagine POV available on some warez site?? :(
Would you expect Fractint to be one too?

Matt

> "POV-Ray is free... the internet isn't!"
So what's the problem? ;)

Post a reply to this message

"Gary Shannon" <reb### [at] teleportcom> writes:

> 
> Considering the outrageous price tag on commercial art software I would
> happily pay $100 for POV-Ray.  Maybe the answer is some kind of reasonably
> priced MEMBERSHIP in a "POV_Ray organization".  Membership would maybe
> entitle you to access to the POV-Ray newsgroups, or maybe a newsletter or
> POV magazine.  Or it might be advisable <gasp!> to make POV-Ray shareware. 
> I'd rather pay for what I'm getting and be able to GET IT than to loose
> access to the resources you're providing.

I do agree. The idea of a membership price is (to my mind) good.
But, there are several points that can be hard to manage: I guess we
would get trouble if we just paid for nothing. So, the newsletter (or
magazine) is a way to give back something. I think we could easily turn
the authors (or coordinators) of The Rendering Times (or The POV-Ray Times,
I cannot remember what name they chose) into giving you the SGML source,
which one could easily convert to Postscript and print, then send.

As for the shareware, I do not quite agree with you, for hte same reasons
as have been exposed in another followup to your article.

POV-Ray forever,

Roland.
-- 

bob### [at] casimirrezelenstfr -- Linux, POV-Ray, LaTeX

Post a reply to this message

>$100? Shareware? Nnnnooooo!!!  Don't let POV go the same way as everything
>else :/ I'm sure (apart from it being the greatest raytracer around) one of

We can promise you that it never ever will be shareware. It will always be
free.

-- POV-Team

Post a reply to this message