On 11/13/2016 8:07 AM, Thomas de Groot wrote:
> On 13-11-2016 5:02, Sherry K. Shaw wrote:
>> Thomas de Groot wrote:
>>
>>> Ah! There it is! This has been indeed one of the major complaints:
>>> people (outside of POV-Ray) do not want to create using text editors
>>> (any more).
>>
>> I Do Not Fingerpaint.
>>
>> I Do Not Use Software That Expects Me To Fingerpaint.
>>
>> I Am A Grownup.  I Can Read And Write.  I Can Do Math.
>>
>> Reading And Writing And Math Are Accurate.  Fingerpainting Is Guesswork.
>>  I Like Accuracy.  I Do Not Like Guesswork.
>>
>> I Like Reading And Writing.  I Like Doing Math.  I Want To Read And
>> Write And Do Math.  I Do Not Want To Fingerpaint.
>>
>> And that's why I do POV-Ray.*  :)
>>
>> --Sherry Shaw
>>
>> * Oh, and also because it is awesome.
>>
>
> Absolutely! Although, me, I am not very good at math, so I mix POV-Ray
> with a bit of fingerpainting.
>
> [blush][small print] I like fingerpainting [/small print][/blush]
>

I'm too lazy to do the maths.
Splash a bit here smudge a bit there. That's the way to do it!

Does the kraken awake?
Because I think LanuHum is right.
<aside> I wonder what the average age of Pov-Ray users is. </aside>

-- 

Regards
     Stephen

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On 13-11-2016 9:34, Stephen wrote:
> On 11/13/2016 8:07 AM, Thomas de Groot wrote:
>> On 13-11-2016 5:02, Sherry K. Shaw wrote:
>>> Thomas de Groot wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ah! There it is! This has been indeed one of the major complaints:
>>>> people (outside of POV-Ray) do not want to create using text editors
>>>> (any more).
>>>
>>> I Do Not Fingerpaint.
>>>
>>> I Do Not Use Software That Expects Me To Fingerpaint.
>>>
>>> I Am A Grownup.  I Can Read And Write.  I Can Do Math.
>>>
>>> Reading And Writing And Math Are Accurate.  Fingerpainting Is Guesswork.
>>>  I Like Accuracy.  I Do Not Like Guesswork.
>>>
>>> I Like Reading And Writing.  I Like Doing Math.  I Want To Read And
>>> Write And Do Math.  I Do Not Want To Fingerpaint.
>>>
>>> And that's why I do POV-Ray.*  :)
>>>
>>> --Sherry Shaw
>>>
>>> * Oh, and also because it is awesome.
>>>
>>
>> Absolutely! Although, me, I am not very good at math, so I mix POV-Ray
>> with a bit of fingerpainting.
>>
>> [blush][small print] I like fingerpainting [/small print][/blush]
>>
>
> I'm too lazy to do the maths.
> Splash a bit here smudge a bit there. That's the way to do it!
>
> Does the kraken awake?
> Because I think LanuHum is right.
> <aside> I wonder what the average age of Pov-Ray users is. </aside>

Age? well above average I am sure. So, what to do about it?

-- 
Thomas

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On 2016-11-13 3:37 AM, Thomas de Groot wrote:
> On 13-11-2016 9:34, Stephen wrote:
>> On 11/13/2016 8:07 AM, Thomas de Groot wrote:
>>> On 13-11-2016 5:02, Sherry K. Shaw wrote:
>>>> Thomas de Groot wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Ah! There it is! This has been indeed one of the major complaints:
>>>>> people (outside of POV-Ray) do not want to create using text editors
>>>>> (any more).
>>>>
>>>> I Do Not Fingerpaint.
>>>>
>>>> I Do Not Use Software That Expects Me To Fingerpaint.
>>>>
>>>> I Am A Grownup.  I Can Read And Write.  I Can Do Math.
>>>>
>>>> Reading And Writing And Math Are Accurate.  Fingerpainting Is
>>>> Guesswork.
>>>>  I Like Accuracy.  I Do Not Like Guesswork.
>>>>
>>>> I Like Reading And Writing.  I Like Doing Math.  I Want To Read And
>>>> Write And Do Math.  I Do Not Want To Fingerpaint.
>>>>
>>>> And that's why I do POV-Ray.*  :)
>>>>
>>>> --Sherry Shaw
>>>>
>>>> * Oh, and also because it is awesome.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Absolutely! Although, me, I am not very good at math, so I mix POV-Ray
>>> with a bit of fingerpainting.
>>>
>>> [blush][small print] I like fingerpainting [/small print][/blush]
>>>
>>
>> I'm too lazy to do the maths.
>> Splash a bit here smudge a bit there. That's the way to do it!
>>
>> Does the kraken awake?
>> Because I think LanuHum is right.
>> <aside> I wonder what the average age of Pov-Ray users is. </aside>
>
> Age? well above average I am sure. So, what to do about it?
>

What POVRay needs is its own user interface tailored to POVRay. Other 
user interfaces tend to break the world into triangles which don't 
translate well to POVRay.  The POVRay text files are cumbersome because 
they are non-visual and they force you to constantly switch from text 
mode to render mode.

I would like to see a user interface that supports all of the POVRay 
primitives.  It would allow you select components of the scene with 
parameters that are alterable.  You don't necessarily need to see the 
text but rather a graphical representation of the text.  It would allow 
you to change any parameters and would re-render the scene automatically 
with those changes.  The rendering might be incremental - it renders in 
low resolution first and refines the image as you wait or renders 
without textures then with textures or it renders without reflections 
and later adds reflections - just some ideas.

I often find myself asking "What happens if I change this parameter?" 
To answer that I need to keep editing and rendering until I understand 
it.  I'd rather select the parameter in a UI and use the mouse to change 
the value and see in real time what it does to the image.

Thoughts?
David Buck

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On 13-11-2016 13:06, David Buck wrote:
> What POVRay needs is its own user interface tailored to POVRay. Other
> user interfaces tend to break the world into triangles which don't
> translate well to POVRay.  The POVRay text files are cumbersome because
> they are non-visual and they force you to constantly switch from text
> mode to render mode.
>
> I would like to see a user interface that supports all of the POVRay
> primitives.  It would allow you select components of the scene with
> parameters that are alterable.  You don't necessarily need to see the
> text but rather a graphical representation of the text.  It would allow
> you to change any parameters and would re-render the scene automatically
> with those changes.  The rendering might be incremental - it renders in
> low resolution first and refines the image as you wait or renders
> without textures then with textures or it renders without reflections
> and later adds reflections - just some ideas.
>
> I often find myself asking "What happens if I change this parameter?" To
> answer that I need to keep editing and rendering until I understand it.
> I'd rather select the parameter in a UI and use the mouse to change the
> value and see in real time what it does to the image.
>
> Thoughts?
> David Buck
>

Yes, I agree with that indeed. That could be something like an enhanced 
Moray, could it not? All the more reasons to have Moray dusted off I 
believe, but that involves (wo)manpower which I believe the pov-team 
lacks at the moment. In the meantime, we - as users - could seriously 
assess what exactly we want changed - in Moray, if that is the course to 
follow - or implemented in a brand-new interface.

[I think it might be time for me to take Moray down from the 'shelf of 
forlorn programs', and start playing again...]

-- 
Thomas

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in news:58285749$1@news.povray.org David Buck wrote:

> Thoughts?
> David Buck

Very often I wished for the opposite, different rendering backends to the 
POV-SDL. That could give a simmilar speed of development.

Modellers are nice for modeling, for putting together a complete scene I 
prefer scripts especialy when using procedural landscaping. I used to have 
a whole suite of small task oriented modelers, most have gone I think. 
Iirc the mac version had little tools like a spline editor. Those small 
things in an IDE would be nice, kind of the opposite of ALT-F3.

Yes, more "front end" would be usefull. Just look at how people work with 
trackers and sythesisers, nodes connected with wires and on the node you 
set some options.

Front ends could be scrips in all kind of languages that make it easy to 
get a visual result of a dataset. What I see is that often POV-SDL is 
"emulated" in python or Lua or something. Then you could just as well do 
it in POV-ray straight away.

A simple way to get motion sets into POV-ray would be nice. Or all this 
Iot data.

Ingo

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On 11/12/2016 11:02 PM, Sherry K. Shaw wrote:
> Thomas de Groot wrote:
>
>> Ah! There it is! This has been indeed one of the major complaints:
>> people (outside of POV-Ray) do not want to create using text editors
>> (any more).
>
> I Do Not Fingerpaint.

I do with my granddaughter :-)

... that's about it for my artistic abilities. I use modelers (blender) 
but I always do materials in povray. Blender is pretty good for cleaning 
up objects that I find here and there but I also objects purely in 
povray too. That said I hear what some of you are saying about the more 
artistic/paintbrush approach, well that's not for everyone but 
apparently some (probably a fair amount) but you know what that say ...

... pick your audience! I think there's far more scientific, and 
educational uses for povray, and it's IMHO povrays greatest strength. 
For example teaching high school geometry ... way more engaging than 
just books and boring lectures. A beginning programming class comes to 
mind a well!

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David Buck <dav### [at] simberoncom> wrote:
>
> What POVRay needs is its own user interface tailored to POVRay. Other
> user interfaces tend to break the world into triangles which don't
> translate well to POVRay.  The POVRay text files are cumbersome because
> they are non-visual and they force you to constantly switch from text
> mode to render mode.
>
> I would like to see a user interface that supports all of the POVRay
> primitives.  It would allow you select components of the scene with
> parameters that are alterable.  You don't necessarily need to see the
> text but rather a graphical representation of the text.  It would allow
> you to change any parameters and would re-render the scene automatically
> with those changes.  The rendering might be incremental - it renders in
> low resolution first and refines the image as you wait or renders
> without textures then with textures or it renders without reflections
> and later adds reflections - just some ideas.
>
> I often find myself asking "What happens if I change this parameter?"
> To answer that I need to keep editing and rendering until I understand
> it.  I'd rather select the parameter in a UI and use the mouse to change
> the value and see in real time what it does to the image.
>
> Thoughts?
> David Buck

Some years I post screenshots:
http://news.povray.org/povray.binaries.images/thread/%3Cweb.5302425140bf5a347a3e03fe0%40news.povray.org%3E/?mtop=402018
&moff=109

http://news.povray.org/povray.binaries.images/thread/%3Cweb.56d33fab8302842a7a3e03fe0%40news.povray.org%3E/?mtop=407442

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On 13-11-2016 20:16, LanuHum wrote:

> Some years I post screenshots:
>
http://news.povray.org/povray.binaries.images/thread/%3Cweb.5302425140bf5a347a3e03fe0%40news.povray.org%3E/?mtop=402018
> &moff=109
>
>
http://news.povray.org/povray.binaries.images/thread/%3Cweb.56d33fab8302842a7a3e03fe0%40news.povray.org%3E/?mtop=407442
>
>

Yes, something like that would be nice indeed to have in POV-Ray.

-- 
Thomas

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"LanuHum" <Lan### [at] yandexru> wrote:
> David Buck <dav### [at] simberoncom> wrote:
> >
> > What POVRay needs is its own user interface tailored to POVRay. Other
> > user interfaces tend to break the world into triangles which don't
> > translate well to POVRay.  The POVRay text files are cumbersome because
> > they are non-visual and they force you to constantly switch from text
> > mode to render mode.
> >
> > I would like to see a user interface that supports all of the POVRay
> > primitives.  It would allow you select components of the scene with
> > parameters that are alterable.  You don't necessarily need to see the
> > text but rather a graphical representation of the text.  It would allow
> > you to change any parameters and would re-render the scene automatically
> > with those changes.  The rendering might be incremental - it renders in
> > low resolution first and refines the image as you wait or renders
> > without textures then with textures or it renders without reflections
> > and later adds reflections - just some ideas.
> >
> > I often find myself asking "What happens if I change this parameter?"
> > To answer that I need to keep editing and rendering until I understand
> > it.  I'd rather select the parameter in a UI and use the mouse to change
> > the value and see in real time what it does to the image.
> >
> > Thoughts?
> > David Buck
>
> Some years I post screenshots:
>
http://news.povray.org/povray.binaries.images/thread/%3Cweb.5302425140bf5a347a3e03fe0%40news.povray.org%3E/?mtop=4020
18
> &moff=109
>
>
http://news.povray.org/povray.binaries.images/thread/%3Cweb.56d33fab8302842a7a3e03fe0%40news.povray.org%3E/?mtop=4074
42


Indeed, as one of the latest capture shows in his thread, we strived hard with
Lanuhum to make the pov primitives dynamic into Blender and they are more
dynamic and parametric than all native Blender primitives ! They are all shipped
with official version of Blender.
https://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Extensions:2.6/Py/Scripts/Render/POV-Ray

At least try it! that's all we're begging for, with no feedback we can't improve
it! also of course some help with Python development would be welcome now that
the POV scenes can be imported and some pov primitives passed in and out of
Blender, things get more complex to maintain and might be broken without us even
knowing it. so even just a simple try and report is very precious to us.
Making a picture in the same go is a nice bonus.
If Moray was as capable as Blender for "finger painting" I would gladly
switch... But let's be pragmatic. That's why I chose POV: It had caustics when
Blender had none, Cycles didn't exist, and Lux Render had no perfectly curved
mathematical primitives.

I started learning Python specifically for this exporter, only to achieve this
very goal several years ago now. Not because Blender's"finger-painting" is
better than scripting... nor because POV scripting is better (no matter my own
preference, the needs must direct just like when pixar made movies with
renderman SDL) Why choose, when we can have both?... and even more! This is
called a synergy.

LanuHum joined me to develop a more experimental version and I try to port his
developments to the stable version whenever I can, and if they fit without
breaking too much. We receive even less feedback in the Blender community
because of the loudness of Cycles development there and belief that POV is too
old to be good. So we're counting on you ! Thanks for your very precious
attention along these past years!
With very special thanks to Clipka who has been very responsive to our requests,
such as alternative shading models, I hope you don't blame him for that...

By the way, about several renderers for one POV SDL, it's already available as
well with UberPOV, trying its stochastic AA should be compulsory for all povers
to see real life render times, promising to bring POV back in the race without
as much noise as Cycles! can't wait for the Spectral revolution as well !

I'm digressing, I hope not high-jacking... What I meant to say is I'm so glad
the original developer of POV seems to feel the same about the power of having
user interfaces and scripting stop resenting each-other!

Post a reply to this message

Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:
> On 13-11-2016 20:16, LanuHum wrote:
>
> > Some years I post screenshots:
> >
http://news.povray.org/povray.binaries.images/thread/%3Cweb.5302425140bf5a347a3e03fe0%40news.povray.org%3E/?mtop=40
2018
> > &moff=109
> >
> >
http://news.povray.org/povray.binaries.images/thread/%3Cweb.56d33fab8302842a7a3e03fe0%40news.povray.org%3E/?mtop=40
7442
> >
> >
>
> Yes, something like that would be nice indeed to have in POV-Ray.
>
> --
> Thomas

Where is it? This is for Povray.
:)

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